Higher Learning for the Conservative Mind

green new deal

Green New Deal


HUGH HEWITT: Morning glory, America. Bonjour, hi, Canada. Greetings to the globe listening on HughHewitt.com or via the Universe, the subscription service. That music means it is the last radio hour of the week, always devoted to “The Hillsdale Dialogue with Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. Or one of his many wonderful colleagues will occasionally take the place.  

But Dr. Arnn is here in person today, and it's a good thing he is, because I am obliged, by virtue of our jobwe tackle the big issues. We tackle the turning points. We go back to Homer, and we come to the present day. We are at the Constitution Article II, Section 2 last week. We were going to talk about the State of the Union, but then the world pivoted yesterday.  

It changed. It tilted on its axis. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez released the New Green Deal—the Green New Deal, excuse me. And it's out there. I've read the entire thing twice. And Dr. Larry Arnn, good morning. I'm fairly confident in asserting that no Hillsdale graduate was complicit or in any way connected to the issuance of the Green New Deal. Am I correct?  

LARRY ARNN: God, it frightens me you ask that. What a scandalif we discover one. I would bet not.  

HEWITT: I would bet not. My favorite part of the entireit's full of grammatical errors. But on page 4, it says, In the same way that a company that is trying to change how it does business may need to make big upfront capital investments today in order to reap future benefits (for e.g., building a new factory…. For e.g., Larry Arnn.   

ARNN: Yeah, for e.g. Yeah, so that's kind of bilingualism, right?  

HEWITT: It is. I would love for you to hand this out at a faculty meeting and ask every member of the Hillsdale faculty to grade it. I told Duane, every time I sit down with my examsthere's a bell curve and everythingand you come up to two or three of them, and you put your head down, and you realize they haven't done a lick of work. They just filled up the Blue Book. You've seen that, haven't you?  

ARNN: So I'm not going to say from whom this story goes or what college it stems. But the greatest paper I've ever heard of is entitled, Walri: Attempting the Plural of Walrus, Nature’s Lion.”  

HEWITT: That might be in here.  

ARNN: Walri 

HEWITT: There might be a chapter I missed on the threats to the walri in the Green New Deal.  

ARNN: I wonder if this woman wrote that paper.  

HEWITT: All right, let's begin. Launched Thursday, February 7 at 8:30 AM. Overview boldedWe will begin work immediately on Green New Deal bills to put the nuts and bolts on the plan described in this resolution (important to say so someone else can't claim this mantle). First thought: “This is a massive transformation of our society with clear goals and a timeline. I go on to point out, actually, there is no timeline, but the word massive is used in double-digits throughout, Dr. Arnn. Your reaction to that introduction.  

ARNN: Yeah, it seems really important, doesn't it? It's like the way you emphasize your things with your rhetoricyou say reallyI really mean it. OK, so she's what's worse comes later, so I don't have any more to say about that.  

HEWITT: I just want you to knowmassive transformation is a red flag, because massive transformation suggests, as Jonathan Swan just pointed out, coercion. This is not actually Socialism. It's Communism. When you dig into this, it's not Socialism, although Socialism has about it coercion. The level of coercion imagined is so large that it's actually Communism.  

ARNN: So I will say a word about that word transformation, because, about a year ago, I was in a public argument with a lady who was proposing transforming colleges to transforming studentsso they could transform the students, right? And I said to her finallyI said, transformationisn't that a neutral term?  

Doesn't that mean you change into some new form? That's what it means. I said, that can be bad, right? Like Hitler went through a transformation. And then I was exasperated. Finally I said, so you imagine a future in which we're shape-shifters, that's what we're going to be?  

HEWITT: That is what this plan is. We're shape-shifting America. Let me read the first parts under the first overview: The Green New Deal resolution a 10-year plan to mobilize every aspect of American society at a scale not seen since World War II, to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions and create economic prosperity for all.  

It will 

  • Move America to 100% clean and renewable energy  
  • Create millions of family supporting wage union jobs 
  • Ensure a just transition for all communities and workers to ensure economic security for people and communities that have historically relied on fossil fuels 
  • Ensure justice and equity for frontline communities by prioritizing investment, training, climate and community resiliency, economic and environmental benefits in these communities 
  • Build on FDR's second Bill of Rights by guaranteeing: 
  • A job with a family-sustaining wage, family and medical leave, vacations, and retirement security 
  • High-quality education, including higher education and trade schools 
  • Clean air and water and access to nature 
  • Healthy food 
  • High-quality health care 
  • Safe, affordable, adequate housing 
  • Economic environment free of monopolies 
  • Economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work.  

Let me emphasize, economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work, Dr. Arnn.  

ARNN: So, the reason I think this thing iswell, obviously, it's comic, but also it's dangerous. And the woman is right, that this list of crazy things is, in fact, just an extension of FDRFranklin Delano Roosevelt's New Bill of Rights speech, in which he said, for example, a farmer should have a guaranteed price for his crops. And what that means is, I can decide to grow somethingmy favorite example is Mexican jumping beansand then you have to buy them. And that means that, in other words, if I grow wheat, and you like to eat bread, so you're happy that I grew the wheat, and you'll pay me money.  

But what if I grow something you don't want, or more of it, right? And what all of this depends on is, you take a thing that a market economy does effortlessly and almost without overhead, which is allocate resources according to consumer demand, and you build a bureaucracy to do that. And the key to this plan, understand, is that she's not going to tax anybody to pay for it. The Federal Reserve is going to print money.  

HEWITT: Yes. It also drains all freedom out of America. I can't emphasize this enough. There is no freedom left under this. It never appears. Liberty does not appear in this document. Freedom and liberty, which are the spine and the sinews of the American constitutional experiment, are absent from the Green New Deal.  

ARNN: Yeah. And that, too, by the way, is kind of an extension, because I'd like to say that we live in a house divided now, and there are two alternative ways to run the government operating full steam. And one of the costs of that is, we borrow enormous amounts of money for ordinary annual expenses. And we need to stop doing that. We don't have to stop doing it now or tomorrow, because the economy's growing and all that. But the truth is, that's just a problem if you live beyond your means. And so, what this lady does is take the fact that we live beyond our means and just put it on steroids.  

HEWITT: In fact, I went back and reviewed, last night, deficits as a percentage of GDP. They reached about 30% at the height of World War II in 1943. During the heights of the Great Recession2010, 2011, 2012they got between 8% and 9%. They are presently at 4%. They were, typically, under Reagan and Bush, at about 2½% to 3%. And Bill Clinton actually got to surplus twice, and so it is not something about which we have been indifferent. But this plan would take us back, as she quite openly acknowledges, to World War II levels of 29% GDP deficits. That's not sustainable.  

ARNN: There's a great book by my colleague Burt Folsom. He wrote a great book about World War II itself, but also about the aftermath of the war. And one of the things he proves in the book is that it's when we repealed all these controls on the economy in World War II that the economy took off and produced the greatest expansion in American historyin world history. In fact, it started in about 1949 and endednever.  

HEWITT: Listen to thisbold, Americans love a challenge. This is our moonshot.  

  • When JFK said we'd go to the moon by the end of the decade, people said, impossible.  
  • If Eisenhower wanted to build the interstate highway system today, people would ask how we'd pay for it.  

This is what I want you to comment on:  

  • When FDR called on America to build 185,000 planes to fight World War II, every business leader”—every business leaderCEO, and general laughed at him.  

True or false?  

ARNN: Well, I'm laughing at that statement.  

Here's an actual story about that.  

HEWITT: We've got 30 seconds. If it's a good story, it ain't going to be in there.  

ARNN: Well, I'll finish the story, but I will tell you that we were extremely ambitious about how much we would produce, and I'll explain what happened.  

HEWITT: Don't go anywhere, America. The Green New Dealit's a pivot point in history. It's America's lurch to Communism. It's America's embrace of Socialism on steroids. And Dr. Larry Arnn at Hillsdale Collegeall things Hillsdale available at Hillsdale.edu. I hope they do an online course on the Green New Deal. And it would be funny, but it would also be necessary. Stay tuned.  

Welcome back, America. It is “The Hillsdale Dialogue. Every week at this time, I'm talking with Dr. Larry Arnn, or one of his many wonderful colleagues at the Lantern of the North, Hillsdale College, or at the Kirby Center in the shadow of the Capitol, about freedom and about the great works of the West and how we got from there to here, from Homer to 2019.  

Today, we are talking, though, about the pivot point that is the Green New Deal, released yesterday. Dr. Arnn, when we went to break, I had read to you a bullet point from AOC's Green New Deal that says, bullet, When FDR called on America to build 185,000 planes to fight World War II, every business leader, CEO, and general laughed at him. Your story.  

ARNN: Yeah, right. So, first of all, we're Americans, right, and we're proud. I liked the State of the Union message for many reasons, but one of them was it's full of that, right? And so, when it becomes clear that we're going to have to get in this war because we've been attacked by Japan, and then war declared on us by Germany, a very foolish thing for Germany to do, everybody just started thinking, Wow, we're going to bury these guys.  

And businesspeople came forward, and Chrysler and tanks, and everybody, right? And so, then, Churchill comes right over to America, before the year is out in 1941, after Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7. And he looked at the plans that were already building to grow and grow and grow, and there were businesspeople in the room. And he said, look at how big you are. This is not enough. And they all went, OK, let's triple it.  

HEWITT: That's exactly right. But she's going to draw solace from that, sustenance from that. I want to go to “How will you pay for it? That's a Q&A in the Green New Deal. She writes, The same way we paid for the New Deal, the 2008 bank bailout and extended quantitative easing programs. The same way we paid for World War II and all our current wars. The Federal Reserve can extend credit to power these projects and investments, and new public banks can be created to extend credit. There is also space for the government to take an equity stake in projects to get a return on investment. At the end of the day, this is an investment in our economy that should grow our wealth as a nation, so the question isn't how we will pay for it, but what we will do with our new shared prosperity.  

What do you say to that, Dr. Larry Arnn?  

ARNN: Well, she's mistaken about how we paid for all that.  

HEWITT: She is.  

ARNN: We paid for all that by people working. The reason the United States is the mostI mean, one of the really dismal lines at the end of this undercuts the whole thing. But the reason the United States has been the most prosperous country in the world is because it offers the greatest opportunity for people to work and advance themselves, founded on the equal right to do that.  

And the point is, free economyI'm actually taking, right now, a course on Ludwig von Mises with one of our great professors, Charles Steele. And I'm the worst student in the class because I attend only episodically. But it is riveting.  

And first of all, what are these guysthese Austrian economistswhat are they brilliant about? They're brilliant about the fact that the energy and work is located in the individual. And this woman thinks that it's located in her, all of 29 years old or however old she isand can't write grammatically, and she thinks that I understand now how to remake the greatest nation in the history of the world. And if I do what I do, everybody will be well-off, and I don't even have to refer to their freedom even in passing.  

HEWITT: Let's depart for a second and pause on modesty, about the ability to human engineer, because Adam Smith's brilliance was the invisible hand of millions of decisions acting independent of each other. Those who are immodest about their ability to shape humans end up murdering millions of them.  

ARNN: Yeah. Well, there's a word, Hughyou're a teacher, and I'm a teacher. There's a word for a teacher who leaves the classroom thinking the achievements were his own. That person is a bad teacher, right? Because the kids learn, and every human beingAristotle writes, the human mind desires to know, right? And so it's in them.  

And the paying for all those things, those are in the American people. They are huge achievements. We were the arsenal of democracy, and there's never been anything like it. And so, this idea that we look away from the people of America in order to get the power to tell them what to do in detail, that's despotic.  

HEWITT: It is despotic. That's it. It is not Socialism. It is Communism. It is Fascism. It is despotism. It drains all freedom out of America. And if we had a media class that understood a lick about history, they would know this. Don't go anywhere. The Hillsdale Dialogue exists to repair that breach in the public conversation, to rebuild the wall of coherence. Stay tuned. It's The Hugh Hewitt Show 

Thirty-three minutes after the hour, America, it's The Hillsdale Dialogue. I am Hugh Hewitt. It's the last radio hour of the week, where I always turn to matters of huge import, whether it is Homer, or the Old Testament, whether it's Immanuel Kant, whether it is Nietzsche, whether it is the American Founding. I do so, usually, with Dr. Larry Arnn, President of Hillsdale College, America's preeminent educational institution. If you want your children to actually be educated go to Hillsdale.edu.  

It's become, I think almost overnight, the go-to destination for serious people. And Dr. Arnn has led that transformation with colleagues who are of extraordinary ability, that you can watch their online courses for free at Hillsdale.edu. You can download them and listen to them. And you can also binge-listen all of The Hillsdale Dialogues dating back to 2013 at HughforHillsdale.com.  

Dr. Arnn, we're talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Green New DealNew Green Deal, whatever she calls itGreen New Deal. And, I want to point out, Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren and other leading Democrats have already endorsed this document, as it appeared yesterday. I read to you now for the audience the first FAQfrequently asked question:  

Why 100% clean and renewable and not just 100% renewable? Are you saying we won't transition off fossil fuels?  

She responds, Yes, we are calling for a full transition off fossil fuels and zero greenhouse gases. Anyone who has read the resolution sees that we spell this out through a plan that calls for eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from every sector of the economy. Simply banning fossil fuels immediately won't build the new economy to replace it—this is the plan to build that new economy and spells out how to do it technically.  

We do this through a huge mobilization to create the renewable energy economy as fast as possible. We set out to get to net-zero, rather than zero emissions, in 10 years, because we aren't sure that we'll be able to fully get rid of farting cows and airplanes that fast. But we think we can ramp up renewable manufacturing and power production, retrofit every building in AmericaI repeat, retrofit every building in America”—build the smart grid, overhaul transportation and agriculture, plant lots of trees and restore our ecosystem to get to net-zero.  

ARNN: OK, so it's a plan to take over the Federal Reserve and the productivity of American business, and harness them to purposes that she defines. First of all, the propositions in what you just read, you could write PhD theses on whether they're true or not and still not get to the bottom of the question.  

HEWITT: Get rid of farting cows and airplanes?  

ARNN: Yeah, I see about the airplanes, but the cows, aren't they stubborn about that?  

HEWITT: Yeah, well, they're already huddled together and talking. If you drive up the 5, you can see them gather together in small groups.  

ARNN: That's right. They're going to rebel. Yeah, and just remember, there's a kind of implicit acknowledgment there that the productivity of the American economy is great. And so, now she just wants to take it over and use it. And she doesn't understand that, if she takes it over and uses it, it won't be a free economy anymore.  

HEWITT: She doesn't really understand that. And I know that some Democrats do, but they are caught in a political dilemma. And I am curious about what unfolded in Great Britain after Churchill was turned out in 1945 and the Socialists came in. And Socialistsnot Communists, but Socialistscome in a variety of colors and flavorsthose who are radical and those who are not. What do the not-radical Socialists do about the radical Socialists?  

ARNN: Well, what they did in Britain was suffer defeat. So the leader of the Socialist Party and the foreign minister of the Socialist Party in 1945 to 1951 were both excellent peoplegood war records. And Churchill admired them both and worked with them both in the Second World War, but they nationalized nine major industries. And then the Conservatives came back in in 1951, and they were still having to borrow money to get food for their people. They couldn't produce. They were the slowest to recover after the war.  

HEWITT: Is it true that Newcastle ran out of coal?  

ARNN: Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know about that. I don't know. I do know thatagain, the cabinetso right now we're doing the last of the great Document Volumes, and it goes from 1951 until Churchill's death1951, when Churchill came into power again. And the point is, what are the cabinet meetingsthe first cabinet meetings about, except how are we going to keep from going bankrupt and be unable to pay our bills, which will stop the importation of food and our people will get hungry? And that's after six years. What was America like in 1951 except rolling?  

HEWITT: Rollingrolling, rolling, rolling.  

ARNN: So that's what happens, right? And Churchillso it just happens there was a blessing amidst all that, and that is, Winston Churchill was around to explain it all. And he'd been explaining it for a long time. His two best speeches, one of them is calledwe've reached the stage now where the political debate is between Socialism and the people. This is the age of Socialism versus the people. And he won an election on that.  

And then, in another one, he's describingthe last industry they nationalized was steel, which was a thriving industry. There was a tremendous demand for steel around the world, and British steel was good. And they socialized it. And then they did it with a statement, and that's the point. Once people in government get the powers that AOCI can't remember her full name 

HEWITT: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.  

ARNN: she is calling for, Churchill says they put something in their announcement, and that is, they're looking for other opportunities for nationalizing industries. What is that, he said, except a warning, that if you raise your hand against this thing, we'll come for you next.  

HEWITT: It reminds me, this New Green Deal, of the 1983 Labour platform put forward by Michael Foot, then Labour leader, which was quickly termed the longest suicide note in history. Americans intuitively know this doesn't work.  

Now, contrast this with President Trump's State of the Union, which, by the way, I believe his third best speech, after the one he delivered in Saudi Arabia and the one he delivered in Poland. It is certainly the best he has delivered domestically. It had an enormous audience. And according to CBS News and U-Gov, 95% of Republicans approved of it, 30% of Democrats approved of it, and 80% of independents approved of it. And included therein was a denunciation of Socialism, and included therein was a call for Venezuela to be free, for which Speaker Pelosi did not stand and applaud.  

ARNN: Right. These very left wing people in American politics are cozying up to these tyrantsMaduro, and before him Hugo Chavez. And so why? Because they look at that, and at last we've got a planned economy. Because if we can only tell the people what to do, we can make them all the same and somehow happy. They seem to be just suckers for that.  

HEWITT: Suckers is a generous word.  

ARNN: Yeah, I don't know.  

HEWITT: All right, let me tell you, we want to get to the 15 requirements between now and the end of the show. But one last bit from the substance, she intends to build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary. Now, there are oceans, and I don't know how you're going to do the train underwater. But we've got the Chunnel. Maybe she's thinking about that. But the high-speed rail experience in California is illustrative of the grand design frustration of social engineers, is it not?  

ARNN: Well, I don't live in California anymore, but, back when I used tothe light rail that comes through Claremont, Californiathe joke was, there's nobody on there except the security guards.  

HEWITT: All right, we'll finish this in the last segment: Social and economic justice security through 15 requirements.” Requirement number one: “Massive federal investments in assistance to organizations and businesses participating in Green New Deal and ensuring the public gets a return on investment. Can you say Solyndra?  

ARNN: Yeah. And again, the market economy, just remember how it works, if it works when it's allowed to work. It means that people make stuff that you want. And that means that there's a demand, right? And if they make something, and you don't want it, then they immediately make less of it.  

I'll state the exception to prove the rule. Apple Computer, a really great companyand Steve Jobs, a geniushe always said, we have to make what people want before they know they want it. And his genius was he did that several times. On the other hand, they just made some phones, and they greatly overestimated how many people wanted them. And it didn't take as much as a month for them to start making fewer of them. That's because they were responding to what people what.  

HEWITT: It's a market. Now this requirement requires some explanation. I really don't know what she means: Ensure the environmental and social costs of emissions are taken into account. What does that mean?  

ARNN: Oh, I think I know what that means. You probably do, too, if you think about it, because, back in the day, you and I were involved in some negotiations with an environmental group. I believe in it today. I think that there should be congestion pricing on the roads. In other words, if you want to drive at the time 

HEWITT: So do I, yep.  

ARNN: And so we were negotiating with an environmental group that liked that thing. And, if you price the roads at a price, there is a price that will make the traffic move freely. Well, then the result is measurable, and you can figure out what the price should be. But they wanted to include all the social costs, which means an estimation of the environmental cost and a whole bunch of other stuff, which is, of course, a license to steal, if you agree to that, because they'll just pile costs on, and nobody can drive to work.  

HEWITT: And it will then kill the purpose of mobility, which is behind congestion pricing.  

ARNN: That's right. In other words, people  

HEWITT: I'd forgotten that. I remember that now.  

ARNN: People had to move around, and people need to go to work, and they need to go to the lake if they're want to go.  

HEWITT: OK, you're going to love this one.  

ARNN: And why should they not?  

HEWITT: This is a requirement, Larry, number four: Provide job training and education to all. What would our experience with public education tell us about this requirement to date, in places like, oh, let's say LA, Chicago, New York City?  

ARNN: Well, compare it through history. The public schools are a hallowed thing in America, founded in the Northwest Ordinance. And for the first 100-plus years of their existence, they were locally controlled—that is to say, the people close to the kidsthe parents and the teachers, especiallydecided the policy in schools.  

And school is not rocket science until you get to graduate school, where it might be rocket science. And so, you can figure it out and make it work. But if you centralize it, and you employmore than half the people in public education are not teachers now. Compare that with the experience in charter schools, where it's one non-teacher for every six teachers.  

HEWITT: Wow.  

ARNN: If you do that, then you're going to make the system cumbersome, and you're going to turn the classroom into a place where kids are only following rules, and they're teaching to the test. And there have actually been prosecutions, where teachers and even whole schools giving the answers to the test to the students so they look better.  

HEWITT: Stand by. We'll be right back with the requirements of AOC's New Green Deal.  

Welcome back, America. It is Hugh Hewitt on “The Hillsdale Dialogue, with Dr. Larry Arnn. All of these dialogues, including this one, available at HughforHillsdale.com.  

Dr. Arnn, I want to be fair. I really do want to be fair. I want to get through the requirements as put forward by AOC yesterday in the Green New Deal. Requirement four, invest in R&D of new clean and renewable energy technologies. Number five: “Doing direct investments in frontline and de-industrialized communities that would otherwise be hurt by the transition to prioritize economic benefits there. That is, I believe, a master plan, is it nota five-year plan?  

ARNN: Yeah, that's right, Great Leap Forward. First of all, in the most depressed communities in America, there is enormous investment in them. It just doesn't work, right? And one of the reasons is, it doesn't start with the people. The schools, in cost per student in the inner city are often very high, but what do they get for it?  

And, if you start it at the bottom with the people, give them a chance to work. The greatest thing going on in America today is that the long-term employment numbers are eating into the long-term unemployed. And people need to work, right? It's good for them. And they can make an independent living, and it changes their lives.  

HEWITT: It serves the soul. It is part of our nature to work. Well, I go on with the must-dos. These are the must-dos: Use democratic and participatory processes led by frontline and vulnerable communities to implement Green New Deal projects locally. Do you realize, America, that that is internally incoherent? You cannot use democratic and participatory processes, and then say they will be led by frontline and vulnerable communities. That's the party, isn't it, Larry?  

ARNN: Well, that's what the words soviet means, right?  

HEWITT: Yes!  

ARNN: The soviets were the groupswe call them stakeholders in Americaof party people who were involved in everything and made every decision. Right now in China, if you run a big company, there's offices on the top floor of party members who are controlling everything. And that works in China right now, because it's a relatively light hand, and because they've got enormous resources in labor that's very skilled and excellent and works cheap. But that won't work in the long term, right? And it is a soviet proposal.  

HEWITT: Thank you for saying so, because that is the truth. Let me get through four or five more of these:  

  • Ensure that all Green New Deal jobs are union jobsthere is freedom gonethat pay prevailing wages and hire local  
  • Guarantee a job with family-sustaining wages 
  • Protect right of all workers to unionize and organize 
  • Strengthen and enforce labor workplace health and safety, anti-discrimination wage, and hour standards 
  • Enact and enforce trade rules to stop the transfer of jobs and pollution overseas and grow domestic manufacturing 
  • Ensure public lands waters and oceans are protected and eminent domain is not abused.  

We finally find something with which to agree, Dr. Arnneminent domain not abused.  

ARNN: Yeah, that's right. Not abused means she's going to use it a lot.  

HEWITT: Yeah, not abused means, in my eyes not abused. Let me now go to my favorite requirement: Obtain free prior and informed consent of indigenous peoples. According to Wikipedia, there are 2.9 million Native Americans. This is a lot of paperwork, Dr. Arnn.  

ARNN: That's right. Or more than that, you just take people and make them powerful over things where other people have to do the work and would enjoy the benefits, if there are any. Again, that's soviet, right?  

HEWITT: It is. And then the last two requirements 

  • Ensure an economic environment free of monopolies and unfair competition 
  • Provide high quality health care, housing, economic security, and clean air, clean water, healthy food, and nature to all.  

So there cannot be monopolies, but there must be mandated that which only monopolies can provide.  

ARNN: She's proposing the mother of all monopolies, by the way.  

HEWITT: That's what I said.  

ARNN: We need Saddam Hussein back here to explain this to us. And there's one that Duane pointed out to me earlier. Once in a while, Duane does a good thing.  

HEWITT: What?  

ARNN: I can't find it, Duane. Where's the one about unwilling to work?  

HEWITT: Oh, that's early on. That's, we're going to make sure that people work who are unwilling to work.  

ARNN: Unable or unwilling to work, and that means that you will have to work so that somebody is supported who is unwilling to work.  

HEWITT: We're not going to make anyone work who doesn't want to work.  

ARNN: And that's basic justice, right? As Abraham Lincoln defined slavery, it's the old serpent in the heart of man. You work, I'll eat.  

HEWITT: Oh, that's a great place to end. Do you think Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez is familiar with the Cooper Union speech?  

ARNN: She's probably got it memorized. What do you think?  

HEWITT: I'm wondering if she has read theif we could get them to listen to the recreation of the Lincoln-Douglas debates, I really do think America would be a lot better off. This is really the dumbing down of America. And it's so dumb, I don't know that we can get out of the hole, Dr. Arnn. That this is not laughed off and ridiculed 24/7 on every channel is an alarm bell ringing in the night.  

ARNN: Well, we don't know the future, and the Lord has his own purposes. And we've been in scrapes before, so we are required to be hopeful and go on.  

HEWITT: All right, and we will next week with the next Hillsdale Dialogue. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Generalissimo. Thanks all of you. Stick around for the post-game show, America. I am Hugh Hewitt. This is The Hugh Hewitt Show