By Hillsdale College May 18, 2018
HUGH HEWITT: Morning glory, America. It is Hugh Hewitt. Thank you for listening to The Hugh Hewitt Show. It is the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last radio hour of the week when I am joined by either Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale collected at Hillsdale.edu. And you ought to go there today. If you've never been to that site, go watch the Churchill course, for goodness sake, or the Constitution course. Hillsdale.edu. All of my conversations with Larry Arnn or all of his colleagues, like Victor Davis Hanson last week, are collected at hughforhillsdale.com for your binge listening pleasure.
Dr. Arnn, congratulations on a successful commencement last week. Sounded like sex-filled there for a second, didn't it? It really wasn't, I hope.
LARRY ARNN: It wasn't like that. Thank you. Yeah. The great thing is commencement is over and that is always a vast relief. But our commencement was great this year. Mike Pence came and it went off without a hitch. And everybody, all the kids did better than behaved themselves. They gave him a standing ovation. And he gave a lovely talk and the head of his on-site advance team is a current Hillsdale College student, Ryan Murphy, a girl who is just lovely. And so it was just fun for all of us.
HUGH HEWITT: Well, I am going to play some excerpts of that after we cover in the first segment some news, breaking news of the week. Then I want to go back and play some of what the vice president had to say and have you comment on it. I noted you stayed awake through the entire thing. I was watching that. And so congratulations to you, President Arnn, for honoring your speaker. In all your regal-dom with your robes on, it's always tempting to catch a quick nod while you can. It's a long day, commencement's a long day, right?
LARRY ARNN: I looked like a medieval Latin singer.
HUGH HEWITT: Yes, you did. All right, first story of the morning has to do with the great City of Brotherly Love, Philadelphia. Well, I just need your comment on this because I'm so mortified by this. The city of Philadelphia, after 20 years of a relationship with Catholic Social Services, announced that they are cutting off that relationship at the end of June, which has placed children in great crisis into the foster homes provided through Catholic Social Services. They are cutting it off. They have 5,000 children, by the way, in need of foster care, but they will not allow anyone qualified by Catholic Social Services to take in those children because of the Catholic Church views on same-sex marriage. What do you think of that? And the Becket Fund is suing about this. But what do you think that tells us, Larry Arnn?
LARRY ARNN: Well, it's an alternative religion and it's aggressive, is it not? I mean, wouldn't the criteria be to take good care of the kids?
HUGH HEWITT: One would think.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, Catholic Social Services has a reason grounded in their faith on peril of their salvation to be good to everybody, especially the young, the little children. So yeah, it's a very aggressive thing to do. And you know, big city politics, right? It's just a one-party state and-- see, I think Catholic Social Services might get-- it's a crisis for the Church, maybe, because I know back in California one time I heard a lady give a talk who was a head of Southern California Catholic Social Services. And they got most of their money from the government. But you know, we don't take any money from the government because we wish to be free. And there's nothing wrong from the government giving money to a church to do some good work for the community and it's more efficient.
So anyway, that's-- but you see what's happening, right? In other words, today, the way the government works, is if you take anything from it, it owns you. And if you don't, it owns you.
HUGH HEWITT: That-- or it will use one of its agents, like the NCAA, which is not formally an agent of the government but acts like it is, to bring the need to bend. In the Becket Fund brief, they write "On an average day, Catholic Social Services serves more than 120 children in foster care, it supervises around 100 different foster homes. Through its combined programs, Catholic Social Services serves more than 2,200 different at-risk children in Philadelphia"-- regardless of race, by the way, regardless of background, regardless of religion, regardless of the sexual orientation of the children as they perceive it. "For decades, Catholic Social Services has partnered with the city to place foster children into stable, loving homes. It has a proven track record of compassion, quality, and success." Close quote, end of brief.
I bring this up only because we talk about the administrative state almost every day. And the reason we do is because like the Borg in Star Trek, it's growing. And it will absorb everything or you will be rejected out into the darkness.
LARRY ARNN: Well, that's true. Remember the expression, don't make a federal case out of it? Everything is a federal case now. You don't have to make it. It already is.
HUGH HEWITT: That, by the way, is one of the reasons brings me to Donald Trump and Never Trumpers. I was debating Charlie Sykes on Meet the Press last night. I didn't intend to. I didn't want to. But Charlie likes to make everything personal these days. I didn't bring up the fact that Donald Trump has now nominated, and Mitch McConnell, Chuck Grassley, and the Republican Senate confirmed 21 appeals court judges. That is one out of eight sitting federal appeals court judges. The average one of which will participate in about between 400 and 500 cases per year. Do you understand the magnitude of what Donald Trump has done to the federal judiciary for originalism?
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, and in a hurry, too, you know? I mean, he is not just way ahead of Obama in some things like that. He's almost way ahead of his whole-for-eight-year record. You know, it's amazing how much he's done.
HUGH HEWITT: Well, President Obama nominated 49 over eight years. By the end of this year, President Trump probably will have confirmed 40.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah. That's unlikely having the numbers. See that's-- you know, he set out to do that. You know, the people who helped him with that have been with him a long time, long before he-- even before he went into politics. And there is-- some of them are brilliant, the ones I know, and they just know. They went to Washington knowing what they were going to try to do and they just got about it.
And yesterday it worked for Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley, who has, let's say, relaxed the blue slip requirement, which is a requirement that if a judicial appointment is in your state, a senator has to sign a little blue slip that says it's OK with him. And if they withhold it, the hearings can't go forward. And this is a custom that's prevailed no matter which party was in power, except the Democrats have abandoned it before.
And so the Republicans were very reluctant to do that, but they did it. And those two guys, been in the Senate a long time and regard themselves as protectors of the traditions of the Senate, both of them made some changes to let these appointments go forward and that's just right.
HUGH HEWITT: It is just right. Now, I hope you're sitting down because this comes from MSNBC, not surprisingly from Stephanie Ruhle, my colleague over there who's a real newswoman. She said this yesterday. Cut number five.
STEPHANIE RUHLE: A year ago this week, Robert Mueller launched his special investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia during the 2016 elections. But what happened economically for Americans and their day-to-day lives in the past year? It's more than just Russia and collusion. We've got to live our lives. So let's take a look.
Americans have made gains with this president. Nearly 3 million jobs have been created since Trump took office. And there are record 6.3 million job openings that employers are ready to fill now. The unemployment rate has fallen almost a full percentage point from 4.8% in January 2017 to 3.9% in April. That is the lowest in 18 years. Wages are starting to tick up slowly, rising 2.6% in April from the previous year. So we still need to play some real catch-up there.
But meanwhile, the stock market continues on its nine-year bull run. The Dow has gained 20% in the past year alone, fueled by strong corporate earnings. Only half of Americans are actually invested in stocks and mostly through 401(k)s and other retirement accounts. But President Trump says his tax cuts, his deregulation, and killing the agenda of regulating and holding businesses back are going to boost our economy, which he says will benefit all Americans in the form of higher wages.
We're going to see if that works out the way he says it will. But here's the thing. Trickle-down economics require trickling down, and we don't know if that's going to happen yet. I want to share some numbers. Right now, 40% of American households are struggling to pay for basics like rent, transportation, childcare, and phone services. And that is even for people who have jobs and live above the federal poverty line, according to a new study from the United Way. So while President Trump deserves a lot of credit for the economic gains that we're seeing and the positive business sentiment in this country"--
HUGH HEWITT: Larry Arnn, before we run out of time, did you hear Stephanie Ruhle say he deserves a lot of credit, on MSNBC?
LARRY ARNN: Yeah! Awesome. Awesome. And you know, it sounds to me like she was going on to take all that away so she could keep her job.
HUGH HEWITT: No, they don't do that. But it's like Salem. They don't actually tell you what to say at MSNBC. They know who you are, but they don't tell you what to say. She's just fair. I mean, there's just-- have you read Conrad Black's new book about Trump yet?
LARRY ARNN: No. I've been hearing about it but I haven't read it yet.
HUGH HEWITT: Oh my, what a book. I'll come back with Dr. Larry Arnn. We're going to talk about the vice president at Hillsdale College Saturday last when we return to the Hillsdale Dialogue. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale.edu. Go sign up for Imprimis right now and come back.
Welcome back, America, from the relieffactor.com studio inside the Beltway. I am Hugh Hewitt. It is the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last radio hour of the week, which I usually spend with Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. We have a third guest today via video, via audiotape, the vice president of the United States who was this Saturday past at Hillsdale as its commencement speaker at the college. Here is one of the things he said, Dr. Arnn. Cut number six.
MIKE PENCE: For my part, I've always marveled at Hillsdale College's long and often lonely stand for freedom in America. This college was founded at a time of great consequence in the life of our nation, a time when Americans were deeply divided over the meaning and purpose of our country and whether, as the Declaration of Independence forcefully states, that we are, in fact, all created equal.
But for the founders of Hillsdale College, the truths of the American founding were just that, true for all people at all times. In 1844, those men and women did what no other college had done up to that time. Hillsdale College prohibited any discrimination based on race, religion, and gender at its very founding. They established this institution to provide sound learning necessary to preserve the principles and the promise of America, and so has Hillsdale done in every era since.
Inscribed on Central Hall, I'm told, are the words, "May earth be better and heaven be richer because of the life and labor of Hillsdale College." And so it has been true. But I also know these words will continue to ring true for generations to come because of the men and women of the Hillsdale College class of 2018. This is an extraordinary group of men and women who have accomplished extraordinary things in their time here. And they've only just begun.
HUGH HEWITT: High praise, Dr. Larry Arnn, and good speechwriting by someone on the vice president's staff, though I suspect he knew of Hillsdale before he began to speak.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, well, he's-- first of all, he's such a nice man, you know. And he's-- you know, his speechwriter happens to be a student of mine. But one of the things that means is that-- because I had quite a few students do things like that-- I know how that works. And that speech, I said it toward the end, that was an emanation of the character, and the strategy, and the convictions of Mike Pence and Mr. Stephen Ford, who told him all the inside baseball stuff about Hillsdale that he got a lot of laughs about.
Mr. Stephen Ford has described to me how that speech and all his speeches work. The speech moves from being gracious to Hillsdale College and talking about the importance of education, to a short period in the middle where he talks about the state of the country, and about the Trump administration, and what it's done so far, to a longer period at the end that is exclusively devoted to faith. And it moves from faith in general to his personal faith.
And that's Mike Pence. That's what he does. That's his-- that's his plan for his life and his plan for his career. And he's been like that for as long as I've known him, and I've known a long time.
HUGH HEWITT: Let's play a clip about the world and the accomplishments as it comes up. Cut number eight.
MIKE PENCE: Today you, the members of the class of 2018, will graduate from this extraordinary college and enter new careers and endeavors. So before I go further, I'd like to take a moment to talk about what good timing you have. You'll be glad to know the America that awaits your energies and ambitions is experiencing a new era of opportunity and optimism.
You're beginning your careers at a time of growing American economy and restored American stature at home and abroad. And I can personally attest from my travels across this nation, faith in America is rising once again.
On the world stage you've seen America embracing our role as leader of the free world with action just this week on Iran, North Korea. And Monday, America will lead the world again when we open our new embassy in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel.
HUGH HEWITT: So Larry, all right, there he did it. He said you're graduating at exactly the right time.
LARRY ARNN: Isn't that good? Yeah.
HUGH HEWITT: When we come back, we're going to come right back with Dr. Larry Arnn. I played the faith talk, because that is the heart of the speech given last week by Vice President Pence at Hillsdale College. hillsdale.edu, America. Stay tuned, it is the Hugh Hewitt Show.
Welcome back, America, it's Hugh Hewitt from the relieffactor.com studios inside the very wet Beltway. I'm Hugh Hewitt, joined by Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. It is the Hillsdale Dialogue. I want to go back to the vice president's commencement speech at Hillsdale College last week, all of which I assume is online at hillsdale.edu. Before I do, Dr. Arnn, Thomas Wolfe died, the great American novelist. I did not know him. I've been reading Matthew Continetti's memorial, and Peggy Noonan's.
Continetti wrote this. "Intellectuals emphasize the disparity between the ideal and the actual. What Wolfe did was highlight the difference between what intellectuals say and how intellectuals behave." Wow. What did you make of Mr. Wolfe? I did not know him, did you?
LARRY ARNN: Well, I-- I met him twice. I didn't talk to him very long. But my new colleague, Michael Anton-- called in my family Mr. Wonton, because he used to babysit my kids-- is writing a big piece about him and interviewed him for several days a few years ago and was meaning to write a book about him, and then got swept up in his life. He just left the National Security Council. And he told me all about him the other day. And he said, he is the most polite and courteous human being I have ever met. He's almost formal, even in long, day-long conversations about his life. Very forthcoming.
And Michael said he asked him once, he said, God has given you a very wicked wit. And Wolfe said, thank you. And he said, how can you be so nice? And Wolfe replied, I think it's because I grew up in the South.
HUGH HEWITT: That's like Walker Percy used to say that. By the way, Joseph Epstein once wrote what I learned about the South, why I love the South, in an essay about his Army years after Korean War and how he read himself to literacy in the South. That might be the case. What an opportunity for Anton. You should tell him to write that book in a hurry, because that description is very enticing. And I was immediately put in mind of one person whose rectitude comes through in history. You know what I'm thinking about?
LARRY ARNN: Who?
HUGH HEWITT: Washington was never not polite and never quite not reserved, right?
LARRY ARNN: Yeah.
HUGH HEWITT: Except on a battlefield.
LARRY ARNN: A standard to which we should aspire, Hugh.
HUGH HEWITT: Well put. Let's go to Michael Pence, the vice president of the United States, talking about faith at cut number 10 last Saturday on the campus of Hillsdale College. Cut number 10.
MIKE PENCE: Now, full disclosure. People who know me well know that I'm a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order.
As the Good Book says, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel. In fact, it was 40 years ago this spring that I put my faith in Christ as a freshman and another liberal arts college not very far from here. And while in some places deeply held religious belief is becoming more rare, leading some to claim that America's rich faith tradition will soon be a relic of our nation's past, it just isn't so. Facts are facts.
Faith is rising across America. I see it every day. In communities large and small, in the way Americans respond in good times and in great hardship, the faith of the American people shines forth. I see it as I travel across this great country as countless Americans take the time to tell us often with great emotion the sweetest words we ever hear. I'm praying for you. And I know they mean it.
And I see it right now, right here at Hillsdale College-- an institution founded by those who proclaim themselves grateful to God for His inestimable blessings. Even as many continue to forecast the decline of religion in American life, the truth is, as President Trump recently said, this is a nation of faith. And faith continues to exert an extraordinary hold on the hearts and minds of a growing number of Americans.
In fact, the percentage of Americans who live out their religion on a weekly basis-- praying, going to church, reading, and believing in the Bible-- has remained remarkably consistent over the decades, even as the population of the United States has grown by leaps and bounds. I mean, think about it. Today, relative to the population, four times as many Americans go to church on a regular basis than at the time of our nation's founding. Religion in America isn't receding. It's just the opposite. Faith is gaining new life across America every day.
HUGH HEWITT: My, Larry Arnn, that is a very unusual and hope-filled message, and not one that is often heard. I'm glad he delivered it.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah. So he's a very interesting guy. He did this incredibly politically gutsy and I think insightful thing because he was running for re-election to the governorship of Indiana. And it was a tight race, but of course, a newer and much less well-known Republican candidate would win that race. And so the betting was he was going to win. And he just-- he got an invitation from Donald Trump, and darned if he didn't take it. And I think that that ambition and calculation in him is to advance those set of things he was just saying.
In other words, he thinks it's a great country, we're free to worship God. We ought to do it, but nobody makes us. And he just loves that and I think he's made it the center of his life. And it's practiced now. He's as much a slave to his wife as I am to mine, you are to the fetching Mrs. Hewitt.
HUGH HEWITT: Which means complete.
LARRY ARNN: Complete. In other words, there's no independent existence, right?
HUGH HEWITT: Correct.
LARRY ARNN: It's a wonderful and miserable condition. And you can't get away from that with him. She just-- they're very close, and she's very charming, and fun, and they're just peas in a pod. But his faith is the same kind of thing.
HUGH HEWITT: You know, I saw the vice president last week at the swearing in of Richard Grenell, the highest openly gay diplomat we have ever confirmed. He's the ambassador of America to Germany, the most important non-nuclear power in the world. And Rick's partner Matt was there holding the giantest Bible I've ever seen, and the vice president swore him in. And then the vice president said to the fetching Mrs. Hewitt, you've got to meet Karen-- which is the highest compliment possible, right, if you wish to introduce someone to your wife. And she walked away. She hadn't met the vice president before, and I have a few times, a remarkably nice man. And I believe it's because he is a Christian conservative Republican in that order, that's a line he's used for a long time.
So tell me, Larry Arnn, why did George Will attack-- savage him-- not attack him, savage him?
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. I saw George this week. And I don't-- that was not-- you know, George Will doesn't like Donald Trump. A lot of people don't. And there are things about Donald Trump that I don't like and a few things that I do. But Pence is-- you know, he does what a vice president does. He boosts Donald Trump. And that's not false because Mike Pence was not a guy with a political job that was not going anywhere. You get elected twice governor of Indiana, you're a candidate for president. So he gave up something to join Donald Trump. It means, I think, he means it. Well, I think maybe George resents that. And--
HUGH HEWITT: I've been thinking about this, because I'm just so startled by it. But let me, if I could take part of your time, I want to read a list so that it is in the Hillsdale archive. This list is Amul Thapar, age 49; John Bush, age 55; Kevin Newsom, age 46; Ralph Erickson, 59; Amy Barrett, 46; Joan Larsen, 50; Allison Eid, 53; Stephen Bibas, 49; Gregory Katsas, 54; Stephen Grasz, 57; Don Willett, 52; James Ho, 45; David Stras, 44; Elizabeth Branch, 50; Kyle Duncan, 46; Kurt Engelhardt, 58; Michael Brennan, 55; Michael Scudder, 47; Amy Eve, 53; Joel Carson, 47; John Nalbandian, 49. They are all confirmed on the federal bench, the appeals bench, and Ryan Bounds, 45; Mark Bennett, 65; Andy Oldham, 40; Britt Grant, 40; Paul Matey, 47; David Porter, 52; Marvin Quattlebaum-- the wonderfully named Marvin Quattlebaum-- 54; Julius Richardson, 42; Richard Sullivan, 54; Ryan Nelson-- I think he's 15, I don't have his age. He looks like he's 15. They are all nominated.
Dr. Larry Arnn, these people will defend religious liberty for the next 30 to 40 years at a rate of 400 decisions a year. How can anyone not see this?
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, that's just too good a thing. And you know, one of my students just became number two in the office-- what was it called? Office of Interagency Regulatory Affairs under the great Neomi Rao-- OIRA.
HUGH HEWITT: Oh, she is great.
LARRY ARNN: She's the person who's called-- except she won't permit herself to be called this-- the regulatory czar. She's what Obama's Cass Sunstein was. And she just hired one of my students to be her number two. And I talked to her about it. And she's so good. Well the point is, all of those judges-- Don McGahn will make the point in public-- all of those judges are not only in an age where they're going to go on for a while, but all of them have done extensive thinking and writing about administrative law, which is the alternative to constitutional law in America today and the scene of the great struggle.
So that's a direction that's not just, let's get a bunch of conservative judges, and not just, let's get a bunch of Republican judges. That's, let's get a bunch of judges who've done substantial work on that big issue. It's amazing.
HUGH HEWITT: And who understand the implication of this unelected and largely unsupervised branch, Doctor. I've got to read to you before we go to break. My friend Jerry just sent me now, George Marshall was also known for his politeness and rectitude. He once advised a staff member to not be concerned with being blunt with him as, quote, "my feelings are reserved for Mrs. Marshall," unquote.
It's very apropos, right? We'll come back with more Mike Pence and Dr. Larry Arnn. It's the Hillsdale Dialogue. All things Hillsdale we've collected for you at hillsdale.edu. Go to www.hughforhillsdale.com if you wish to binge listen to all these. And I hope you do. They go back five years and back to Homer and forward to today.
MIKE PENCE: For my part, I've long believed that nothing is more important to the future of this nation. Faith has always been the wellspring of hope for millions of Americans. From our very founding, faith has been the foundation of our freedom, as well. And religion was recognized by our Founders as essential to the republic. It's a truth that's been taught here at Hillsdale. It would not be a new thought for this class.
HUGH HEWITT: Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That is Vice President Mike Pence talking last week at Hillsdale College. I am broadcasting from the relieffactor.com studios inside the Beltway. But that was at Hillsdale, Michigan. The president of Hillsdale College, Dr. Larry Arnn, joins me. All of that address can be found at hillsdale.edu.
Dr. Arnn, it occurred to me when I was listening to Mike Pence, a study came out less than a month ago by the National Association of Scholars. Mitchell Langbert wrote it. Homogeneous-- The Political Affiliations of Elite Liberal Arts College Faculty.
And he sampled 8,688 tenure-track PhD professors from 51 of the top 66 liberal arts colleges in the US News and World Report. And the astonishing ratios of Democrat to Republican is so overwhelming. Bryn Mawr, they have 72 Democrats and no Republicans. At Wesleyan, they have 31 Democrats and 1 Republican. At Franklin & Marshall, 15.4 to 1. At Lafayette, 6 to 1. At Worcester, 5.8 to 1. I mean, these are the good ones. But if you go to Sarah Lawrence, it's 54 to 1. It is remarkable.
And I believe-- and tell me if you think this-- I think this is going to crumble. This cannot endure. People are going to want Hillsdale College and commencements like that for their children.
LARRY ARNN: Well, we can't beat them off with a stick these days, and we recruit by trying to do that. And what's that about? It's a hard thing because you don't educate kids, you help them educate themselves. And you don't form their characters, you help them form their characters.
And that means if you get into a world like this, just remember, the movement that has taken over America started at the top. It started in German universities and spread to Princeton, and Johns Hopkins, and Columbia first, and Tufts. Cornell was founded to perpetuate it. And so it started in a few places. A new set of ideas to get rid of the old ones. That's why Woodrow Wilson would say throughout his life, and as president of Princeton, the purpose of Princeton is to make young men as different from their fathers as possible.
And so now in the academic world, that's the great citadel of all of this. And it's just uniform, right? It's overwhelming. And the good places congratulate themselves that they let people who disagree with them talk, and the bad places won't even do that. And the point is, it's not just that you get to talk in the university. What do you study and what conclusions do you draw? And how do you go about drawing them, right? And that stuff is different in kind now.
HUGH HEWITT: And I believe-- and maybe I'm an optimist. I believe that there are ties that bind to the old school tie, but they've frayed because people are afraid for their children that they will not lead good lives nor productive ones if they are brainwashed.
LARRY ARNN: That's it. And you know, your children-- you go away, and your children come back unrecognizable to you. Look, in my own case, my parents are the greatest things. My dad was a schoolteacher and he found his happiness in the classroom. First one of his family to get a college degree in history. All of the Arkansas stuff. And I grew up very decently.
It took about a year and a half for me to just become completely infected with the things they teach in the university. If you read The Abolition of Man by CS Lewis, it begins with a literature book and explains how, without ever making any argument, without ever saying they're going to do that, they just reverse the moral world of everybody who goes there. And of course, it's a big argument from authority.
I was just a kid. And what happened to me was I tried to get out of the class, but I was forced by the department into a class that we read Plato. And all of a sudden a whole world of which I had known nothing grew up as an alternative to this stuff that was just preached everywhere, and at Arkansas State University, for goodness sakes.
HUGH HEWITT: And the good news is that there are more places like Hillsdale where that will become the norm. I just don't know if there are going to be enough of them fast enough, Dr. Arnn. The last minute to you. That is the question. Can we outstrip the speed with which this fungus is spreading?
LARRY ARNN: Well, Mike Pence said on our campus last Saturday that that's in God's hands. And I have trust in the future, knowing that.
HUGH HEWITT: Well, he's an optimist. But you know, I'm not sure.
LARRY ARNN: Because just think, Hugh. Isn't there an enormous advantage to an argument that establishes your humanity and your freedom as opposed to the one that makes you a tool of evolution and historical circumstances?
HUGH HEWITT: Well, when you put it that way. Dr. Larry Arnn, thank you, my friend. The Hillsdale Dialogues all collected at hughforhillsdale.com.