Higher Learning for the Conservative Mind


Responses to Kavanaugh's Hearing


HUGH HEWITT: Morning glory, America. Bonjour, hi, Canada. It's Hugh Hewitt in the ReliefFactor.com studio, inside the Beltway. That music means it's time for the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last radio hour of the week. And, boy, is it a significant hour this week because, in two and a half hours, the United States Senate will be voting to close debate on the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh. It will prefigure the vote on his confirmation tomorrow. And I am joined by Dr. Matthew Spalding. He's Hillsdale College's director of the Kirby Center, which is the lantern of reason that sits in the shadow of the Capitol, run by Hillsdale College.  

All things Hillsdale are available at Hillsdale.edu, including crucial courses on the Constitution, including all of our dialogues, going back to 2013, with Dr. Spalding; Dr. Larry Arnn, the president of Hillsdale; or members of the faculty. And, of course, you can sign up for Imprimis for freethe speech digest there.  

Dr. Spalding, before we do anything elseyour reaction to the Kavanaugh proceedings, and whether or not you believe he will be confirmed today, and whether or not he should be confirmed today.  

MATTHEW SPALDING: Morning, Hugh, I am Atticus, Atticus Finch. I think this is an amazing thing. He should be confirmed. I think he will be confirmed. I think it's falling into place.  

But this whole episode, I think, is an amazing and revealing moment in our history that has drawn us back to a much larger debate about the nature of our country and, behind that, the history and the standing of this Western concept of the rule of law. And I think this is a key moment that has now risen beyond Kavanaugh. He's become a movement, in a way, about this representation or this idea. And this has been engaged.  

HEWITT: And so, let me give you the background, Matt. You're calling into the middle of a wild show. I have spoken to Meredith in Los Angeles; Lucy in New York; Connie in San Antonio; Debbie in Dallas; Margaret in Hawaii; Irene in Saratoga; Jenna in Denton; Kim in Illinoisa truck driver, by the wayseven kidsa widow; Cindy in San Antonioparalegaltwo boys; Jan in St. Petersburg; Melissa in Dallas; Beth in Michigansoldier son deploying now; Kelly in Virginiaformer sex crimes prosecutor; Kim in Columbus; Sally in LA; Pam in Delawarea psychiatrist; Renee in Pittsburgh; Penny in Virginia; Melissa in Winchester; Michelle in the Grapevine, Texas; Myra in Palos Verdes; Carol in Wisconsin; Helen in Philadelphia; Marla in Tampa; Melissa in Detroit; Colleen in Pittsburgh.  

They all want Brett Kavanaugh confirmed. Most of them are furious at his treatment. And they have not been represented in the media.  

SPALDING: No, I think that's right. I mean, to which I was going to add my sister-in-law, down in Fredericksburgpeople I've talked to. This is an amazing thing. And I think that the initial push of this, and raising it the way it was, is a last-minute strike. But then it's gotten to the point where there's, now, a pushback from that, as more and more people have gotten involved and are thinking about this as parents, as siblings, as moms of sons. It's just an amazing moment when people realize that.  

I know it got posed this way, and people are seeing it in a very clear and stark way. But this really is a moment in which a principlea core, fundamental principlehas become exposed in a way that demands a fundamental reaction. And that is a point about fairness.  

I was in a cab the other day, coming in from Virginia. And I got in. I like to talk to my cabbies. And I did not expect this conversation to go the right way. I was just chitchatting. Kavanaugh came on the radio. He asked me what I thought about it. Well, what do you think about it? And he looked at me straight: “This is unfair. This man is being mistreated, and it's unfair. 

I think there's a natural way in which other human beings get this, which does go to the root of what it means to be a self-governing country, and the establishment of the rule of law, rather than the rule of arbitrary men, and about something that is called due process, a process to which we are due, according to the law, because we are all created equal. And we have an opportunity to be innocent before we are proven guilty. It really goes to the heart of all those things. And you're seeing that reaction in common, ordinary, solid American people.  

HEWITT: There is a story today in The Wall Street Journal that a friend of Dr. Ford felt pressure to revisit her statement, one that would indicate manipulation of witnesses. There is, in these 26 callers, a fundamental distrust of Dr. Ford's appearancenot her testimony, not herbut that this was a manipulative process. Do you hear the same thing?  

SPALDING: I think part of this is—I think the American people are a good, compassionate people, and they're trying to grapple with this question. They don't want to question her. They don't want to question her passion in that moment. I think a lot of them see her as a victim as well. She well might have been the victim of harsh treatment in many cases.  

But there's no evidence, here. So how do you weigh these things? And I think their reaction is that, as more and more comes out, there's manipulation going on here. It seems that her own counsel does not share information with her. The story itself is really falling apart, and I think this is a reaction to that. And then, people are saying, Well, what if this was my son? What if this was my brother?  

There's so much that has been put out there in the last minutein the eleventh hour. And now, it's like people are just throwing mud up on the wall and see if it sticks. This is precisely why we have the rule of law, so that this is not what rules us. We want qualified, good judges.  

We mentioned the other day, this letter, which all of these law professors have signed onhe does not have the temperament. Regardless of what you think about all the particulars, he doesn't have the temperament. They make no mention of the Constitution in that letter. Isn't that interesting? There's no discussion there about what it means.  

HEWITT: Well, that's a whole subject. Maybe we'll do that. The academy has revealed itself. The media has revealed itselfmany institutions of elite, the Yale faculty, the alumni of Holton-Arms. They have all rushed to convict Judge Kavanaugh in a way inconsistent with our norms. And, indeed, I think the Senate will confirm him because the blue bubble doesn't include senators. They got out of the blue bubble. I think they've heard from people.  

SPALDING: I think they have. I think two things have been revealed: One is I think that the people have broken through, and senators have heard them. I'm actually encouraged because we're seeing senators who, heretofore, I had my doubts about, but they are being political in the good sense. They understand the politics of the moment. And they're stepping up.  

At the same time, what broke through that bubble, and the reaction that broke through that bubble, was because these modern views that we associate so much with the academy and what goes on in our college campusesthat's come to Washington. This is Mr. Collegethis is Mr. University coming to Washington. That's precisely what's going on here. And I think that's why this is really a cultural clash.  

And this reaction by a lot of people tells us, once again, that's not the America that people want. They want a system that still has a rudimentary rule of law. And this is unfair. This is not how you treat people. This is not how you conduct a fair process. And I think senators have heard that loud and clear. And chipswe'll see where they fall.  

But I mean, I think this is a debate we have about our politics right now, having to do with the judiciary, and this particular man, and this particular case.  

HEWITT: During the courseI never take callers during the Hillsdale Dialogue, but I'm going to today so that Dr. Kavanaugh can react a little bit with the women who have called in. And Sharon in Pennsylvania, Kimberly in Brooklyn, Melissa in Cleveland, Paige in Spartanburg, we'll get to you.  

But I wonder, first, Matt Spalding, about the Hillsdale students who work at the Kirby Centerwho study in Washington, DC. What have you heard from them this week?  

SPALDING: First of all, they're watching this carefully. It's a phenomenal thing to be here, to see it happening before their very eyes. But I think they see it not in an instinctive way. I mean, these are young people. But they are thinking about their own futures and what this means for these arguments. At the beginning of the show, when I said, I am Atticus, I was referencing Atticus Finch, right?  

HEWITT: Yes.  

SPALDING: We read this book. This is a great book. He was hated in his community because he was defending a black man who was being accused of rape by a white woman. And it turns out he did not commit the crime. So they've studied these things. They've read The Brothers Karamazov, right? About Dmitridid he kill his father? And now, they're seeing it play out in front of them. That's actually a powerful thing.   

HEWITT: I'll be right back with Dr. Matthew Spalding, head of the Kirby Center of Hillsdale College. It is the Hillsdale Dialogue. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale.edu. Stay tuned.  

Welcome back, America. It's Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue is underway, the last radio hour of the week.  

My guest is Dr. Matthew Spalding. He is the director of the Kirby Center of Hillsdale College, the lantern of reason in the shadow of the Capitol. And, in five years of doing Hillsdale Dialogues, I've never taken calls. Today is different because in two and a half hours, the Senate will vote. And I want to hear from women with Dr. Spalding. And I'll start with Melissa in Cleveland. Melissa, should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

MELISSA: Absolutely. Good morning, Hugh. I love your show. I am so happy we have a voice in our party that speaks volumes to what this country needs to hear at this time. I am Catholic. I have two teenaged girls. I have a lot of friends with teenage boys. And I am just appalled at what they have done to Brett Kavanaugh and his family.  

I want your callers to know, I took your advice last week. I'm in Ohio. I called my senators in Ohio, and I voiced my opinion. I also spent a long time on the phone yesterday, trying to reach the swing vote senators. And I told them that he should be confirmed, that my friends and I, we disagree with this charade.  

HEWITT: Melissa, thank you. Thank you. I mean, that's very representative, Matthew Spalding, of what I've heard all morning. That's the 27th call.  

SPALDING: No, it's amazing. I heard some of the calls earlier. And the consistency and the passion of them is powerful. And they're so different. Yet, they are all thinking about it, about themselves, and their family, and the people they know. And they're appalled by this.  

This is what I mean whenwe're in this particular moment, but it actually is about us, and what we are, and what we stand for. This is a question of justice. We see it right here before us. This is not some abstraction about Federalist 78. We're seeing it right here.  

HEWITT: It's a question of justice. That's very well put. It's a question of justice.  

SPALDING: Absolutely. And sometimes we speak in abstract terms. But sometimes it's right in front of us. And sometimes it takes other people, who aren't in the bubble all the time, to see it and point it out to us. And I think that's what we're getting in these calls.  

HEWITT: Kimberly in Brooklyn, New York. What do you think, Kimberly? Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

KIMBERLY: Yes. Good morning. I think that he should absolutely be confirmed. Like I think I told the guy who picked up, I live in Brooklyn. And I'm really outnumbered by people who are against Brett Kavanaugh. It's very scary, just to express this viewpoint. I try to keep it to myself.  

What I see happening to Brett Kavanaughand I say that as a former domestic violence prosecutor and now a criminal defense attorney. What I see as being 

HEWITT: Oh, I think we lost her. Sorry about that. Matt, you heard what she started to sayvery scary to even express what she thinks.  

SPALDING: No, you've got to wonder what that'sI mean, this is the problem with this uprising of academic protests now everywhere. The people out there that are in the middle of that—that’s got to be overwhelmingly difficult for them. They see this, too.  

It's really amazing. This is a real populist moment, as they all come out, and we hear what they actually think, as opposed to their marching orders that they're getting from on high.  

HEWITT: Let me go out to Michiganto Canton, MichiganChristine. Christine, you're on The Hugh Hewitt Show with Matt Spalding, the director of the Kirby Center for Hillsdale. Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

CHRISTINE: Absolutely. I am a mother of two sons, one who's 23, who's a second-year law school student. I watched Judge Kavanaugh’s Judiciary Committee hearing. And I haven't seen my son—he never shows any emotion since he was five years old. I looked over. He was weeping. And I could cry now thinking of it, of how raw and honest Judge Kavanaugh's testimony was.  

And you could see it in the audience. Even Dr. Ford's lawyers had to put their heads down because they knew the honesty with which he was saying it did not happen. He did not do this. And when he talked about his daughters praying for Dr. Ford, we both lost it. I mean, what a great family, and what a great way to raise children. And to pray for her is truly altruistic.  

HEWITT: Christine in Canton, Michigan, thank you. I'll be right back with Dr. Matthew Spalding as the Hillsdale Dialogue continues. Dr. Spalding is exactly right. It is a moment of justice. And we will find out where the Senate is in two and a half hours. Stay tuned to The Hugh Hewitt Show 

Welcome back, America. It's Hugh Hewitt in the ReliefFactor.com studio, inside the Beltway. We are two hours awaytwo hours away from a vote to close debate on the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to become an associate justice of the United States Supreme Court. That vote will prefigure the final vote tomorrow.  

And I am surprised, over the course of three hours, that we have had, thus far, 29 calls, all in favor of Brett Kavanaugh being confirmed from first-time callers who are women from across the country.  

I'm joined by Dr. Matthew Spalding, director of the Kirby Center, Hillsdale College's outpost of reason on Capitol Hill. And, normally, he and I just talk, or Dr. Arnn and I just talk, about an issue or a set of readings. But today, for the first time in the history of the Hillsdale Dialogue, I'm taking calls, to get Dr. Spalding's reaction.  

And I want to go to Alaska and Laurie. Laurie, you're on The Hugh Hewitt Show with Matt Spalding. Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

LAURIE: Oh, yes. Thank you so much for letting me express my opinion. I've been so frustrated with my Liberal friends on Facebook saying, I believe her. And I'm like, Yes, but what about the evidence? Anyway, I've texted and called and Facebooked Lisa Murkowski. And I'm so hoping that she chooses to say yes to Judge Kavanaugh 

HEWITT: Have you heard back from her?  

LAURIE: No, I haven't.  

HEWITT: OK, but I'm glad you did. She's actually doing a very good job of consulting. Thank you, Laurie. Laurie, by the way, how old are you?  

LAURIE: I'm 61.  

HEWITT: And so, when you wrote her, what did you say to her?  

LAURIE: I said, Please don't believe the angry, loud minority. The quiet ones are here. And we support Judge Kavanaugh 

HEWITT: Thank you, Laurie. Matt Spalding, Americans are engaged. I mean, they are texting and calling. We had demonstrators at the Senate against Kavanaugh. But I believe we have no idea, except in the polls, which have shown a massive switch to the Republicans in the last two weeks.  

SPALDING: I think we've seen, not only here in DC, lots of people and protests, massive amounts of letters. Look at the amount of things that are going into newspapers, on the web. These calls, which are phenomenal. The pollingthere's lots of movement in polling in the Senate, but also in some of these House races.  

I think what we're seeing is that our politics are not settled. They've not been settled in this era since 2016. There's a lot of tectonic plates moving. And, sometimes, something happens. And I think this is one of those times. This Kavanaugh thing has happened.  

It happens. And anybody on the edge who's not sure about this unsettled moment has a moment of clarity. And you see what's going on. And it reveals something about our politics. And I think that's exactly what we're seeing.  

This is a question of justice. But it brings up this broader question about the parties. What's going on? Where is our country going? Wait a minute. What is going on here? And I think we're seeing that right in front of ourselves. And this vote will determine this man's fate, but also the Supreme Court. It'll be a very important moment in our politics because then the parties have to decide where they go afterwards, regardless of the outcome. What does this mean for the future?  

HEWITT: Another data point. Let's go to Paige in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Paige, should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

PAIGE: Yes, he should.  

HEWITT: Why?  

PAIGE: He should, because I come from a small town of Union, South Carolina. And, for years, if something is going on, you hear whispers about it. You know. You know, you've heard stuff. You've never heard anything about him before. He's innocent. He's innocent. And I feel like he is, basically, Trump's sacrificial lamb. The people want blood, and they can't get it right now, and they're using him.  

HEWITT: Excellent point. What do you think of that, Matt? That a lot of the anger at Kavanaugh is, in fact, displaced Never Trumpism?  

SPALDING: I think there's a lot of truth to that. But I think the flip side is also true. I think there are a lot of people who kind of like what Trump's doing but were not necessarily completely convinced about himthis comes along. And this is really the first thing in the Trump administration, which is a high-profile event, in which you've got a figure that's not specificallynot personally tied to Trump. This is about him.  

And so, I think that's opened up this whole conversation in a way that, yes, you are seeingthe left is focusing on it. This is absolute resistance. But, also, for a lot of Americans who may or may not be with the administration in all thingsthey may or may not have voted for himthey're seeing this as well. And I think they're seeing it for what it is. And this has all opened up. And so we have this divisive moment.  

HEWITT: Anne in Minneapolis, you're on with Dr. Kavanaugh on Hugh Hewitt. Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

ANNE: Yes, I'm on my Bluetooth. I hope you're hearing me OK.  

HEWITT: Yep.  

ANNE: OK. Hey, I also saw Dr. Arnn speak last night. I just want to say that was really fun. He was here in Minneapolis.  

But I also want to say I am so glad to have a voice to speak out in favor of Brett Kavanaugh's appointment. In Minneapolis, I live in this Liberal, crazy place where I am certainly the minority voice, around my town. But, that being said, I'm glad that you're giving us women a voice.  

I am a licensed psychologist. I work with victims. I don't know what to say about her testimony. I wasn't overly impressed, but I also have to say, women who have been victims have many, many different experiences and responses to it. So it's really hard. I mean, I believe that probably something happened to her.  

But, more importantly, I'm really concerned about due process and Mr. Kavanaugh's being innocent until proven guilty. She gets handled with kid gloves, and he just gets grilled.  

HEWITT: No, due process is what Matt Spaldingthank you for the call, Anne. Due process is understood intuitively by Americans.  

SPALDING: I'm actually very heartened by this. And their reactions show that those core principles of Western civilization, for God's sake, are still there. This is very good. And they’ve seen that due process—I mean, whether this guy is innocent until proven guilty or the oppositeit's just before them. And they're saying it through these comments. People are reading this day by day. They're putting it together, and they're coming to this conclusion. It's an amazing thing, this reaction.  

HEWITT: Kelly in New York State, Kelly, you're on with Dr. Matthew Spalding on The Hugh Hewitt Show. Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

KELLY: Yes.  

HEWITT: Why?  

KELLY: I am furious that we are in this situation. If you have a father, a husband, brothers, sons, I want to let every American woman know that the Democrats are coming for them. They can be completely innocent. And all they have to do is say one thing or make one incorrect thoughtutter one politically incorrect statementjust be disliked, have a Conservative temperament or view of the world, and that's it. One anonymous, unsubstantiated accusation, they are coming for the men in your life.  

HEWITT: That will be the Kavanaugh standard. AndMatthew Spalding, people are not unaware of that. They're aware of the new standard being forced upon the process here.  

SPALDING: No. I think they're picking it up. So this particular case has brought it out. But the thing to remember here is that the logic of this is not something new. This just didn't pop up after 2016 because of this particular case. This is really the logic of post-modern liberalism goes.  

This is identity politics. This is what I meant by the academy comes to Washington. It doesn't matter whether the rule of law is upheld. It doesn't matter whether he's innocent until proven guilty. It's all about identity politics, and how he's defined in that. And he's on the outside. This is more like North Korea, right? He's violated the principlesthe deep principlesof the party, and so, therefore, we have to find him guilty. We'll have a trial later. Maybe this is Alice in Wonderland. I don't know.  

But there's a clear disjunction here thatit becomes obvious in a particular circumstance. This is a wonderful example of—we talk about the principles overarching. And, every once in a while, the circumstances just make that patently obvious. And that's where we are.  

HEWITT: Roberta in Philadelphia, should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

ROBERTA: Yes, but I have a different perspective I'd like to tell you. I attend Temple University’s senior program. There's hundreds and hundreds of people that go. Every classroom I go intothe sneers, snide remarks from the teachersfrom the fellow students. And you have a self-selected audience. And we call in because we care. And the other people do not get this message. They get their messages from other sourcesCNN, MSNBC ABC, CBS, whatever.  

HEWITT: That's true, absolutely. But, Matt Spalding, I know the sneering Liberals don't believe in the talk radio audience. This is not prescreened. We do not care if people are against Kavanaugh. They don't want to believe. And so, when you go outI've got now 30-plus callers. It's not prescreened. You can't make this up.  

SPALDING: No, I think it's right. I go back to my example of the cabbie, right? I think what is amazing here is that this is a moment where the people are engaged in a way they've not been on a lot of things. They're looking at it through the lens of their own background, their own lives, their own families. And there's so much information out there coming so quickly, it's hard to filter it. There's just so much, and they're picking up on this argument.  

I think that tells you something about the general health of the American public, which I think is good. We're still divided. By all means, this is a much-divided country. But a lot of people who, heretofore, we thought were only lightly engaged and not interested in politicsthey see this.  

That strikes me as a very powerful statement about the human verities, but also about the permanence and strength of the American character and human natureabout seeing something that is patently unfair and unjust.  

HEWITT: I will be back in one more second, with Dr. Matt Spalding. Maybe one or two more calls. I could do this all day. But the vote is two hours away. Say a prayer for the senators, and Kavanaugh, and his family, and, yes, for Dr. Ford. I'll be right back.  

And then come right back. Dr. Matthew Spalding of Hillsdale College returns for one more segment after this on The Hugh Hewitt Show 

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt in the ReliefFactor.com studio, with Dr. Matthew Spalding. It's the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale.edu. Go there, and sign up for Imprimis please, and get all their online courses. Before I go back to Dr. Spalding, a lightning round of my last four callers, 30 seconds each.  

Should Judge Kavanaugh be confirmed? Carrie in Arizona, first-time woman caller, what do you think, Carrie?  

CARRIE: Absolutely.  

HEWITT: Why?  

CARRIE: I'm with him 100%.  

HEWITT: Why?  

CARRIE: I used to be a victims advocate. I believe him. I don't believe her. And we need him on the Court because it will be good for the country.  

HEWITT: Thank you. Harriet in Atlanta, what do you think? Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

HARRIET: Yes, he absolutely should. And I also wanted to say a point that Matt Spalding was talking about earlier. He said that we now have college protesters that have learned it's OK to have a fit in their school. And they easily get their way. And, then, they go and sit outside the senator's door, and have a screaming fit. So it seems like it's so easy for these protesters to do this. And they are heard way too much in Washington. And it's infuriating, and I think that's a great point, Matt Spalding brought up.  

HEWITT: Thank you so much. Carrie in New Hampshire.  

CARRIE: Because Judge Kavanaugh is qualified, and he has the experience. He's just the person that you want on the Supreme Court. But then, more importantly, I feel like this is such the critical moment. Hugh, it's what you've been talking about, what Matt has been talking about. We need to stand up for facts over feelings. We need to stand up for due processprinciple. We are going to disagree in this country, but we have got to figure out a way to disagree that is respectful.  

HEWITT: One last call, from Theresa in Missouri, before I go back to Dr. Spalding. What do you think, Theresa? Should Brett Kavanaugh be confirmed?  

THERESA: Absolutely, he should. I just feel that everything that has happened concerning his nomination has all just come from a very bad place. And it's just always back and forth. This side thinks this, this side thinks this. And I think, at some point, you just have to look at the facts as what you know them. And I think he absolutely should be confirmed.  

HEWITT: Thank you so much. Matt Spalding, I've had 39 calls39 calls. We do not screen, except for drunks and crazy people. They all want him confirmed.  

SPALDING: It's an amazing outpouring. But I'm also struck by how they're making very good points and reasoned points. I mean, that caller, I think she was from New Hampshirethis is about facts, not feelings. Right? They see that.  

But this is why we have this whole process. I mean, the whole movementthe creation of the American constitutional system, the establishment of this thing we call the Founding that we're trying to protect herewas precisely to set up a process by which we disagree. And, in fundamental moments, when we have great disagreements, we still have a processa legitimate, a fair, a just processso that we can come to reasoned, deliberate conclusions, and we can govern ourselves, and we can go forward as a nation.  

This does come together here. I mean, I'm really moved by these calls, to the extent that they see the core thing going on here: This is unjust. But it's also an attack on the very system that's behind that, that is necessary to uphold justice on a day-to-day basis in a free country. And that's, I think, very powerful.  

HEWITT: So, I don't know how this is close, Matt Spalding. I really don't. Because it is so transparent in the stories this morning about witness manipulation, et cetera. Are you an optimist about this when it's all said and done?  

SPALDING: Well, I'm not necessarily an optimist. I think there's going to be a lot of messiness in our politics for some time. There's a lot of aspects of this that needs to be deconstructed out of the system. What I am an optimist aboutand these calls, I think, underscore that optimism—I have always been an optimist about the American people and their ability to govern themselves when they're engaged and when something is before them.  

I mean, this goes back to the old notion aboutthe jury system is based on what? Twelve of your peers—ordinary Americans, they decide these things. Why? Because that's how we do that. And the character is formed in a way that they're going to be fair and just. That's, I think, the only source we can have of optimism, ultimately. The question is whether the American people engage on this and other questions in ways that restore self-government and rebuild that system in the near futureif at all possibleso we can proceed.  

HEWITT: Yeah, it is just remarkable to me. Thirty-nine phone calls, no screening. But I do have leftists sneering at it. Oh, those are justleft. Yes, that sneer tells us so much, Matt, the last minute to you.  

SPALDING: No, no, it does. This is a confrontation between two ways of ruletwo regimes, if you willhere in the same country. One wants expert rule, whether it's bureaucratic rule, or rule by judges that do whatever the heck they want, or don't believe in popular opinion. The other is this populist moment, which has its messiness in a democracy. But I think we're seeing it come out in a very healthy way. And the question is, does that populist movement get directed towards the deep and fundamental principles that are necessary to restore constitutional government?  

I think this debate is a great debate. And I think I'm optimistic about the particulars of Kavanaugh. But I'm optimistic about our country and what this means. It's healthy. This is healthy politics.  

HEWITT: All right, I agree with you, Matthew Spalding from Hillsdale College. Thank you very much. Everything Hillsdale available at Hillsdale.edu.