By Hillsdale College October 13, 2017
HUGH HEWITT: Morning glory, America, it's Hugh Hewitt. It is the last radio hour of the week. And that means it is time for a Hillsdale dialogue with Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College, or one of his colleagues. This week it is Dr. Arnn. We've been doing these since January of 2013. There are 225 Hillsdale dialogues, all collected at hillsdale.edu or on SoundCloud.
Most of them concern works of Western civilization, which endure. Some of them concern current events. A few of them, sports. I'm angry with Dr. Arnn because he jinxed the Indians. As I left the Kirby Center in Washington, DC on Wednesday night, he came up to me on the curb. And no sooner had he engaged me in conversation than the Yankees went yard. So I think you bear the burden of another crushed season of Cleveland fans' hopes, Dr. Arnn.
LARRY ARNN: I respond that you're ending the week talking like a Steelers fan.
HUGH HEWITT: Let me try something else.
LARRY ARNN: I was a little sad about the Indians, because I'm on your side on this one, oddly enough. Although I get so tired of you talking about Ohio. But Cleveland is a tough city and a great city. And it's good to recover some glory, and so I was disappointed for them.
HUGH HEWITT: Recover is the word and the quest goes on. Before we get to John Kelly's remarkable press conference yesterday, or the President's executive orders on doing Obamacare and the Iran deal, which are remarkable, I have to ask you as a college president and as a father. There is a story in the New York Times magazine this Sunday, which posted online today. Why are more American teenagers than ever suffering from severe anxiety?
And the numbers are quite startling. Whether it is hospitalization, anxiety disorder, suicide attempts, a doubling of hospital admissions for suicidal teenagers over the last 10 years. This age group is your life, it is your business. I don't know if you've read this yet or not, but have you seen of which it speaks and what do you think is driving this?
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, I've seen it. At Hillsdale, we have – Hillsdale's a pretty successful place. We have more counseling than we used to have and more need for it than we used to have. I wouldn't call it a crisis. It's something we watch a lot and try to help with. And this is mostly just anecdotal, because as I say, the college – which is not such a huge college – and also almost everybody is very successful, so it's small numbers.
But when we see it, we see it connected to trouble at home. We see it to grade anxiety. A huge effort at Hillsdale College is to take away grade anxiety. And if you get into Hillsdale College, you have an average of a 3.9 in high school. So they've always made A's. And we don't think that's good for a person. So we try to help with that.
And sometimes, they get shocked and it tears them up and they lose their self-esteem. Well, if they got it by getting A's in a context where most everybody was getting them, that's not very sturdy self-esteem. So there's that going on.
But also, our kids are not rich, they're not from rich families. I think 75% of them work while they're in college at something. But on the other hand, kids are richer than they used to be. So don't talk about me and you, but my parents who grew up on farms in the depression in Arkansas, they worked 14 hour days. And school started at the beginning of August and then it let out for six weeks for the harvest. And then school started back up again. So they lived a life where they didn't have time to worry about much, they were just working all the time.
HUGH HEWITT: That's absolutely true. My mom was a – I've told this story many times about Depression era, you didn't get clothes, you didn't buy dresses. And my father started the day in the chicken coop, because he was the youngest of three boys. And that was the worst job and it went to the youngest of the boys. And so there is that.
I read in this article, though, Jake, who's the star of the article in a bad way, I worry if I fail a quiz, I'll get a bad grade in a class, I won't get into the college I want, I won't get a good job and I'll be a total failure. It's college anxiety at the teenage level, Dr. Arnn, I think, that is driving some of these stories.
LARRY ARNN: Well, David Brooks wrote an insightful book. What was it called? It was after he wrote Bobos in Paradise. He wrote a book about college students. And I read – I confess, I only read one chapter of the book – and here's another thing. And I should have mentioned this, because I noticed it, because he first showed me to look out for it.
Kids start living in day planners when they're 14 years old and 12 years old. And they get on there student activities. Because getting into college is hard. It's hard to get into Hillsdale College. And we don't do it quite the way other people do, but it's still very competitive. And so you've got to make the grades. And that starts – people say that, one reads about people who live in New York, in this article, you're talking about this in the New York Times, that they start pulling strings when their first kid is born, getting kids into the right kindergarten.
And kids are coached for that, right? And our kids at Hillsdale College, they kind of live like me. That is, I've got a big list of things I've got to do every day, and a schedule I've got to do them on. And they live like that. And we encourage them not to join so darn many things.
So there was a great story – I don't know the president of George Washington University, and doubtless, the one who said this is gone now, but whoever he was, he was quoted in a newspaper article, and I still laugh about it when I think about it. He's talking about college admissions and he says the following. I don't know where you'd find a leper in this day and age, but they find them and they read to them.
HUGH HEWITT: Yeah, there is a book by Frank Bruni, with whom I agree on almost nothing, Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be: an Antidote to the College Admissions Mania. And it's very well written, and it is, I think, indispensable for parents embarking upon this and their students.
But we talked last night, Dr. Arnn, in a tele town hall that we did from the Kirby Center about education reform and charter schools, the need for parents to be involved and to get off of this track and to actually seek excellence. And you brought up that Socrates ran the first academy named for the man who gave him the ground. Do you suppose that those students at that academy were trying to get into something else, or just into the conversation?
LARRY ARNN: Well, we know the answer to that. It was Plato, Socrates' student, who founded that academy. But we know from Plato's Republic that it starts out – I mean, everybody should read Plato's Republic. It's tremendous, it's drama, too. It starts out with a contest for the souls of two young men, Glaucon and Adeimantus, between two old men, Thrasymachus and Socrates. And Thrasymachus is a Sophist. He wants to teach them to be powerful. And that's exactly [? opposite ?] to the point you're making.
Kids are into success today, right? And that means mostly material success. And so Glaucon starts out with this powerful argument that justice is whatever the strongest person says it is. And, of course, the conclusion you draw is, get strong and then whatever you do or want, you can call that justice. And Socrates destroys him.
Now, what's interesting about this is that Glaucon and Adeimantus are Plato's brothers, younger brothers. And so The Republic, one of the greatest books ever written, begins with a contest for the soul of Plato's brothers. And Socrates teaches them that knowing the good, that what is good for you, would be your interest. And so, you see, that means that the people who entered Plato's Academy had taken that step towards serious learning.
And a conclusion to draw for parents, by the way, thinking about sending their kids to college, is that you should actually make the judgment about two things that will hardly ever come up in the admissions process at most places. And one of those things is, what will they study and learn? What, specifically? And the second is, what is the good of that for them and everyone else?
HUGH HEWITT: Having gone through this three times, that's not what most parents do. That's just not. It's not what I did as I assisted three students through this. And successfully so. But nevertheless, it's a combination of many things that you do. Probably design, how do you help them achieve happiness as opposed to goodness? And that's a very difficult thing. And now students are internalizing that.
We have a minute, Dr. Arnn, and then we'll come back to John Kelly. What's your advice to the students and the parents who are suffering from this anxiety?
LARRY ARNN: Tell them – my elder daughter, who wrote her doctoral thesis on Aristotle and now runs a charter school, used to say when she was a little girl, she'd kicked her feet, sit on the bed and kick her feet, and say, why won't you let me be happy? And I would say, you're too young to be happy. You first have to learn to be good. Tell them that. If they focus their souls on that, then they'll be aiming for something that is satisfying and they won't be frustrated.
HUGH HEWITT: You're too young to be happy, aim on focusing, aim to be good.
Well said. We'll be back with Dr. Larry Arnn. One of the most amazing press conferences ever in the White House press room yesterday by General John Kelly, the White House Chief of Staff. We'll break it down after this. Stay tuned.
Welcome back, America. It's Hugh Hewitt, joined by Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale collected at hillsdale.edu. All of our conversations, going back to 2013, January thereof, at hughforhillsdale.com or on SoundCloud.
Dr. Arnn, John Kelly, General John Kelly, four-star Marine Corps general, former Secretary of Homeland Security, now the White House Chief of Staff, gave an amazing press conference yesterday. Let me begin it for you, and then let's comment on it for the rest of the hour. Cut number five.
JOHN KELLY: Well, good afternoon. Great to be here. Couple of comments, I guess, and then we'll open it up for Q&A. I would have to tell you that coming into the job as the Chief of Staff, I had decided to not do too much with the press until I got my feet on the ground and figured out what base I was on on any given day. Prior to this, when I was at DHS and certainly as a Marine general officer, interacted with the press a great deal. But coming into this job, I really needed to get to know the lay of the land.
I have done, I think, three off the records. The first one of which was, of course, violated. But thank you for all of you that didn't violate the trust from those off the record periods. I would just offer to you that although I read it all the time pretty consistently, I'm not quitting today.
I don't believe – and I just talked to the president – I don't think I'm being fired today. And I am not so frustrated in this job that I'm thinking of leaving. I would tell you, this is the hardest job I've ever had. This is, in my view, the most important job I ever had. I would offer, though, it is not the best job I ever had. Best job I ever had as, I've said many times, is when I was an enlisted Marine, sergeant, infantryman. That was the best job I ever had. So unless things change, I'm not quitting, I'm not getting fired, and I don't think I'll fire anyone tomorrow.
HUGH HEWITT: Larry Arnn, we could spend the entire show on that 1:40. What's your reaction to that?
LARRY ARNN: Well, you know, what a great guy. One of the things that – I think there's many vices with the press. And one of them is when they cover the executive branch, they never managed anything. And so they always treat it like it's just these warring personalities. And anything successful in execution is not like that. But the second thing is nobody – not Donald Trump and not anybody else – ever gets elected president of the United States who's a shrinking violet.
And so the idea that John Kelly is in a struggle to control the president? He's a soldier in the United States military. And in no military on earth is it better understood that soldiers are not supposed to do that.
So the first thing he does is just make plain he's a humble guy. He's trying to bring order to a very complex business that most people do it had never did before. And it looks to me like he's succeeding. But isn't all that wonderfully normal and straight? And really, how it would have to be.
HUGH HEWITT: And not only have journalists not managed anything, I'm not certain that many of them are well-versed in the history. You and I were talking yesterday about the book by Candice Miller, Destiny of the Republic, about James Garfield. At the 1880 Convention, the Republican Party was split so badly between the so-called stalwarts and the so-called half-breeds that fist fights were common. Ulysses S. Grant was the candidate of one. There were three candidates on the other side. Garfield emerged as the consensus candidate. It makes today look like tag.
LARRY ARNN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And things that are going on there in the White House and in the Congress are very important things and they're very divisive things. And so a reasonable man – and John Kelly is such a man – he would look at all of that and he'd be thinking not, how do I get my way, how do we become successful?
And you've heard that thing about the sergeant. Well people should know – because I've been around the military a fair amount – I've never been in it, but sergeants run the military. That is to say, they make it work. And officers, if they're smart, depend on them. And a Marine first sergeant, that's a very certain kind of human being, and very capable. And he's a general now, but he remembers that fondly.
HUGH HEWITT: Very fondly. And we'll come back and talk about the significance of that and his other comments when we return to the Hillsdale dialogue. All of them collected at hughforhillsdale.com. All things Hillsdale, including your free subscription to the speech digest Imprimis, available at hillsdale.edu.
Welcome back, America, it's Hugh Hewitt, joined by Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. We are talking about a press conference held at the White House yesterday by the White House Chief of Staff, retired United States Marine Corps four-star General John Kelly. Let me play the second cut for you, Dr. Arnn, and we'll come back to it. Cut number six.
JOURNALIST: Are you frustrated?
JOHN KELLY: No, I'm not frustrated. This is really, really hard work, running the United States of America. I don't run it, but I'm working for someone who is dedicated to serving the country in the way that he's talked about for a number of years.
There are incredible challenges. Economic challenges, health care challenges, all of that, obviously international challenges that have to be dealt with. I don't mean any criticism to Mr. Trump's predecessors, but there was an awful lot of things that were, in my view, kicked down the road that have come home to roost pretty much right now that have to be dealt with.
This is hard, hard work, John. And my only frustration, with all due respect to everyone in the room, is when I come to work in the morning and read about things I allegedly said or things that Mr. Trump allegedly said, or people who were going to be fired or whatever, and it's just not true. That's my frustration. I mean no disrespect to you all.
HUGH HEWITT: He went on to say, Larry Arnn, quote, "it is astounding to me how much is misreported. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are operating off of contacts, leaks, whatever you call them. But I would just offer to you the advice, I'd say, maybe develop some better sources, some person that works way down inside an office or, well, just develop some better sources."
What do you think he's saying, Larry Arnn?
LARRY ARNN: Well, so it turns out I know a bunch of people in the White House. And I'm in Washington, DC this morning and I've been seeing, I've been there three times this week. And I know some important people in the White House. But the ones I like are the young ones, and some of them have been in classes of mine.
And I reported to 10 of them yesterday, I said, you know, a senior person here in Washington, who's been covering the Executive branch and writing about it for 25 years, said the White House is in chaos. What do you think? And they looked at me blankly. Right?
And they're – I don't know if people know, but the White House is not a very big place. It's not like the Capitol, that's a huge building, right? The White House is pretty small and the number of people who work in there is a few thousand. But each office has got a dozen people in it or something, tends to be the case. And the quarters are close. Everybody hears everything. So that's not the impression they have.
And as a matter of fact, yesterday, the theme I heard from a bunch of them is, we are having a fantastic two weeks right now, aren't we? And they've got stuff to point to. And they're proud of it. And there's been a lot of work go into it for a long time. And now, it's rolling out. And so they describe an atmosphere of success.
HUGH HEWITT: They are correct in also reflecting that it is orderly and calm. Mick Mulvaney, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget, was on Meet the Press, as I was this past Sunday. I didn't talk to him on the set, but Chuck Todd did. And he was emphatic that these stories are just absurd. That it's an orderly process.
However, the President's tweets give a different impression. But what he does is he tweets before he goes to work and he tweets when he comes home from work. It's his hobby. In between, you don't see him tweeting. He's doing his day planner, as you referred to in the first segment. And they're doing stuff.
And this week, the EPA announced its rule, proposed rule, to roll back the Clean Power Plan. The president has destroyed the subsidies, which are unconstitutional, in violation of the Efficiency Act. And we have something to say about that. And he's withdrawing from the Iran deal. And people forget that that can only be done if they're not in compliance. And they're not in compliance, which means a terrorist state took us to the cleaners under President Obama, Larry Arnn. It's a very good week for freedom.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah. And think, so I'll tell you something else, first about the week for freedom. Well, first about the tweets. So these people, like Mulvaney is a revolutionary budget director. This two-for-one thing, you've got to take out two regulations every time you put in one new one. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Next year, for the first time in the history of the United States of America, we're going to have a regulatory budget. How much do the regulations cost? And it's going to be measured. And next year, it's going to be lower than this year. And the year after that, lower again. That's never happened before. And Mick Mulvaney is very aware that he was put in that office by Donald Trump.
And so maybe Trump's tweets are a bad idea, but it's easy for me to say, I didn't get elected president of the United States and he did. And then he's put these people in place that are doing all this work. I heard yesterday, from some really – no, three days ago, I heard from some really great people in the White House who have to do with this regulatory affair stuff, which I think is the most important thing going on in the government today. I can explain why.
But they say that they are doing some wonderful things, according to my [INAUDIBLE] to get the unrepresented part of the government under control. And they say that when they mention to the President what they're doing, he's impatient with them for not doing more. And they love that. So yeah, that's what's going – you know, I can only tell you what I hear.
HUGH HEWITT: That's what I hear, too. But the media does not have – and what Kelly was saying. In fact, I'll play this part so you can hear what he's saying about the sources. Cut number eight.
JOHN KELLY: One of his frustrations is you, all of you. Not all of you, but many of you. As I say, when I first started talking, again, I'm a reasonable guy. But when I read in the morning, I read the – well, I won't tell you what I read, but when I watch TV in the morning – it's just, it is astounding to me how much is misreported. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are operating off of contacts, leaks, whatever you call them. But I would just offer to you the advice I'd say, maybe develop some better sources. Some person that works way down inside an office or – well, just develop some better sources.
The Congress has been frustrating to him. Of course, our government is designed to be slow. And it is. His sense, I think, as a man who is outside of the Washington arena, a businessman, much more of a man of action, obviously his great frustration is the process that he now finds himself.
Because in his view, the solutions are obvious. You know, whether it's tax cuts and tax reform, health care, infrastructure programs, strengthening our military. To him, these all seem like obvious things that need to be done to protect the American people. Bring jobs back, these are all the things that he sees as vital to protect the American people or to advance American economy and whatnot.
And the process is so slow and so hard sometimes to deal with. So I think those two things.
HUGH HEWITT: Dr. Arnn. Dr. Arnn?
LARRY ARNN: Yes, hello.
HUGH HEWITT: Yeah, you're on. What did you make of that?
LARRY ARNN: Oh, sorry. I thought that was somebody else, Hugh. Yeah, it's a common sense thing. I mean, like I've been thinking, because I, you know, first of all, I have a job, I run a college and I teach in it. And I'm here because we're doing some exciting things at the Kirby Center and we're working on them this week.
But I go over there and see my kids, and sometimes some important people in the government. My kids are important, too, but they're my kids. Anyway, they are producing a lot. And I am tempted to make a chart of what was produced so far in the Trump administration versus others. Because they're turning out a lot of stuff.
And of course, you don't really have to make your chart. Just go read any big newspaper and you will see, let's say read it for three days in a row, and you will see constant complaints that the Trump administration is disorganized and can't get anything done. And also, that it is doing a bunch of terrible things.
HUGH HEWITT: Yes. Yeah, John Podhoretz tweeted this morning about a comment made yesterday at a panel by the editor-in-chief of the New York Times, Dean Baquet. And Dean Baquet said he wants to be clear to the public that the paper's motivation is journalistically sound and not part of a vendetta. Quote, "I can't do that if I have 100 people working for the New York Times sending inappropriate tweets. The Times is going to have to come up with a tougher policy." And John Podhoretz concludes, isn't this a complete admission that many Times staffers do have an agenda and Baquet wants to hide that fact?
John is right. They do have an agenda. They do want to hide that fact, because they are against what Trump is doing. They're against his temperament as well, but they are against what he is doing. Paris, the Iran deal, the Obamacare. He's against all three of those things, and all of those reporters are for all three of those things, wrongly, but deeply.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah. And those are serious, complex things. And it looks to me like – I mean, I think that what happened about health care yesterday – I was reading articles about it this morning. I'm on Hugh Hewitt, I have to read the press a lot more than I used to. I think it's impressive and far-reaching.
And I also think – and I can tell you that that important people in the White House who deal with stuff like this, they understand that the things that they're doing won't last unless there is legislation for these things. And they are operating in a world where they are undoing executive orders with executive orders, or operating under congressional action, under laws that permit them to act in this way.
But they know that the next administration can undo all of this. And so although they're enjoying making these dramatic steps, they would love to see some laws passed. And Mr. Kelly just said, General Kelly just said that point. He said, you know, he's frustrated, he'd like to see more come out of the Congress. Well, everybody is, aren't they?
HUGH HEWITT: They are. And Mitch McConnell, the leader of the majority, said yesterday that the blue slips are a tradition that will no longer be honored. Chuck Grassley, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, indicated that maybe he doesn't agree with Mr. McConnell. But that's one of those traditions which actually has no part of the Constitution, Dr. Arnn, that unnecessarily slows the government when the government ought to be working. And they are allowed to adopt their own rules, but that's not even a rule.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah, so the blue slip, as people know, is a blue piece of paper that a member of the Senate has to return the Judiciary Committee before a judge nominated from his state can be considered. And that's a practice that is some decades old, but often not honored during those decades. And the blue slip, of course, raises the larger and more important question of the filibuster. And one hopes and prays that they will do something about that. And what that would do would be to return the filibuster to its original meaning, which is this.
HUGH HEWITT: Wait, after the break. We'll come back to the filibuster's original meaning after the break.
Welcome back, America. Dr. Larry Arnn is my guest. We were talking about President Trump's frustrations, as evidenced by John Kelly, the White House Chief of Staff retired Marine Corps general, yesterday, at how slow the Senate moves.
We went to break, and Larry Arnn was saying, the answer to that is to return the filibuster to its original approach. Not to a blocking mechanism, but to the Roman Senate's idea of a filibuster, Dr. Arnn. You were about to explain.
LARRY ARNN: Well, I refer you to Imprimis from February of this year, where Tom McClintock – your friend and mine, Hugh – a Congressman wrote a beautiful article about that. He's worked on this for years.
And what it says is that the filibuster is actually older than America. But it's only lately meant what it means today. What it was was a rule to guarantee that there would be a full opportunity for debate. And that meant that when there were members present who had something pertinent to say about the subject at hand, they could keep saying it. If it became repetitive or odious, then the speaker could rule that the debate was over. But the purpose of it was to make sure there got to be a full discussion.
Well, the way it works today is you can stop all the business of the Senate just by saying that you're putting in a filibuster. And then, they have this two-track system, because what that would do under the way the filibuster was in America, say 40 years ago, is that until you took that off, the Senate couldn't talk about anything. But now what they say is, OK, then we can take up something else. And that means you have effectively tabled that thing forever. And that actually stops debate.
So if we went back to the original meaning, the Senate is proud that it's a big talking body. That's what it should be. But also, they deliberate – which we learned in our Aristotle – is always the precursor to making a choice in order to make a choice. And so they should get to a choice. And all they'd have to do is just make the filibuster what it was 75 years ago.
HUGH HEWITT: I want to close with the last thing that John Kelly said at that press conference yesterday, talking about President Trump's tweets. Cut number nine.
JOURNALIST: President Trump –
JOHN KELLY: Are the people in the front row like the most important people, or is it –
JOHN KELLY: No, seriously, how do you end up –
JOURNALIST: We're the cannon fodder.
JOURNALIST: We're the first in line when they start shooting.
JOURNALIST: But in the wake of this recent fight, do his tweets make your job more difficult, General Kelly?
JOHN KELLY: No. No. I mean, the job of the chief of staff is to staff the president, give him the best advice or go get the best advice I can give him, help him consume advice, help him work through the decision-making process in an informed way. But that's my job and that's what I do.
HUGH HEWITT: Larry Arnn, he said earlier, it's the hardest job he's ever had, but it is far from the most dangerous job he ever had. And I don't know if you cringed, as I did, when they returned to we're the cannon fodder, because he's actually seen cannons. He's seen men fight and die. And there has got to be a part of him not amused, but bemused with the White House press corps.
LARRY ARNN: I'll tell you just a quick story about that. So I got into a taxi yesterday and the taxi driver suddenly pulled over to the side of the road, got out a card, and gave it to a guy who was homeless and said, call that number and you'll be off the street in two days.
I thought that was really impressive. And the guy was a young man and he was just full of spit and energy. And then I learned that he was a Marine first sergeant, now out of the Marine Corps, but working for veterans and homeless people. He took a call and then returned a call about a woman that he had befriended on the street and he'd found her a place to live and he couldn't reach her and he was sending the cops to do what he called a welfare check, see if she's OK.
So that guy, right, that's the spirit. And of course, that guy, I learned, has been shot at a lot. And so, that's right, chaos in the White House, they're doing a lot. And you know, I go there sometimes, but I also can tell everybody who's listening, I don't know for sure exactly what's going on there. It looks pretty active and energetic and even happy to me.
HUGH HEWITT: And even happy. And I believe, as well, that people are not judging this administration by any standard measure, largely because of the conduct of the president in public, so he brings it on himself. But the standard measure of a presidency is in two-year gulps and in regulations finalized, not in two-hour news cycles.
Last minute to you.
LARRY ARNN: Yeah. So last minute. I would say, first of all, the President of the United States, I don't know whether I like his tweets or not. I hardly ever read them. I only read about them in the press. But you can see why he does it and you can see why they object. They want to be his only way to reach the people, right? And he's found a way to talk to them all the time. It's certainly one of the reasons he got elected president.
HUGH HEWITT: And it's one of the reasons he crushed the NFL. He crushed the NFL.
LARRY ARNN: He crushed them. Isn't it wonderful, right? Spoiled babies. And he just took them down. And they think they're America's darlings. But remember, another reason why he would be treated differently than others, he is changing things like he said he would.
HUGH HEWITT: Dr. Larry Arnn of Hillsdale College. Always a pleasure. Follow all things Hillsdale at hillsdale.edu. All of these conversations dating to 2013 and Homer, available on SoundCloud and at hughforhillsdale.com.
Talk to you next week. Thank you, Adam and Duane and Ben. Thanks, all of you, for listening. Talk to you Monday and see you tomorrow morning on MSNBC at 8 AM. Don't miss it.