Higher Learning for the Conservative Mind


Trump's State of the Union Address


HUGH HEWITT: Morning glory, America, it's Hugh Hewitt. That music means the Hillsdale Dialogue is upon us. Once a week for an hour I sit down with one of the key members of the Hillsdale College faculty and staff-- usually Dr. Larry Arnn, the president of Hillsdale College, and we are lucky that it is indeed Dr. Arnn in the house today. Tomorrow is my annual Groundhog Day show, so he's agreed to come in early and surprise all of our Thursday people with this.

And it's all Hillsdale at Hillsdale.edu. All of our previous conversations are collected at HughForHillsdale.com. You can subscribe to Imprimis, the free speech digest at Hillsdale.edu, and you can indeed see all the Constitution courses, the Churchill courses, the course on progressivism-- it's all at Hillsdale.edu.

But today we're going to talk about the State of the Union, and we're not talk about the Constitution. Dr. Arnn, good morning and thank you for coming in a day early.

LARRY ARNN: Good morning. Yeah, we're going to shock the Thursday people.

HUGH HEWITT: And they're all asleep and then they're waking up and they're going to hear some high-end constitutional talk. I want to begin with this. We were in the middle of Memogate-- whether or not the Congress of the United States ought to supervise and release its findings concerning the FBI.

I want to remind people, Congress is Article I. They authorized the existence of the FBI, they fund it every year, they detail exactly how it spends its money. The FBI objects that it could hurt the relationship between the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the FBI if this memo comes out. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court is a creation of Congress. The fact that it operates with the FBI is as a result of a statute that Congress wrote.

Dr. Arnn, we have basic constitutional illiteracy in the media's coverage of this story.

LARRY ARNN: Well, put it in school terms, right? So we've got two people who operate mostly in private, accused of doing a bad thing, and they're saying, if you release it, it will hurt the relations between the two of us.

HUGH HEWITT: That does not make a lot of sense.

LARRY ARNN: It doesn't, though. I mean, let's say that there was a list of agents of the United States undercover and they were at risk, right? Well they're not, you know? I mean, in other words, what this memo is supposed to say-- and I guess we're going to see it, you know, maybe today.

But what it's supposed to say is that the FBI went to this foreign intelligence court and based an application to wiretap and surveil members of a presidential political campaign on the basis of a dossier. And this dossier has its origin in certain political actors–some on both the left and the right–in the United States that stems from opposition research, right?

So they are taking political opposition research and they are turning that into surveillance of a political campaign. That's a questionable thing. And why not tell the people about it?

HUGH HEWITT: Now what's interesting is CNN is reporting at this hour that the FBI agent at the center of the storm, Peter Strzok, played a key role in the controversial decision that upended Hillary Clinton's campaign just days before the election–a letter to Congress by then FBI Director James Comey announcing the Bureau was investigating newly-discovered Clinton emails.

It's a new revelation that Strzok, who is very anti-Trump, wrote the letter opening it. And so it's being suggested in the media, how could it possibly be that he's a bad guy if he wrote this? In fact, we don't know anything here about how someone covers their tracks if they think they're going to–we don't know a thing, Larry Arnn, but all the people who applaud The Post, the movie out right now, and the release of the Pentagon Papers are all of a sudden have switched entirely to the non-disclosure side of the aisle. What does that tell you?

LARRY ARNN: Yes. What it tells you is, if you've got people who prosecute Americans and who handle secrets and they're mucking around in political campaigns, which James Comey did obviously during the political campaign as head of the FBI, then sunlight is an excellent solution, isn't it? And so I don't understand not releasing it.

And I think that there should be more released, right? In other words, this memo when we see it is going to raise questions. I think that those questions should be answered.

HUGH HEWITT: Well, the interesting thing about the text messages between the agent as head of counterintelligence or deputy head of counterintelligence and the lawyer, who is his mistress, is that they were being sent in a fashion that leads me to believe that they were compromised by foreign intelligence agencies as well.

If you know who the head of counterintelligence is, you're going to do everything in the world you can to surveil them. And if you're sending text messages like this, chances are they're going to get surveilled–almost everything is compromised, Larry Arnn. Do you operate on that assumption, by the way, when you send emails?

LARRY ARNN: Yeah, well our secret-keeping rule at Hillsdale College is try not to have any secrets.

HUGH HEWITT: That's a good–that's exactly the best way to go about it. All right, let's go to the State of the Union. Your general observation of how it went.

LARRY ARNN: Well, I think it was awesome. I think it was highly intelligent from the political point of view, and I think it was inspiring. I like to compare States of the Union messages over time, and the modern ones are very different from the old ones because the government does way too much, that's why the speeches are so long, so I don't like that about it.

But if you look at the string of them, you know, since the bureaucratic state was born that changes American politics in fundamental ways, the presidents had been Nixon through Trump. And Trump's speeches are like Reagan's speech and very unlike Clinton's and Obama's speeches. Different.

All of the speeches have something in common. They all salute the American people, they all work for the American people, they say. They all want more jobs, they all want national defense–they're all like that. But the difference is in how do you go about it?

And in Trump's speech, the American people are brave, active, they have compassion in their souls and steel in their spine. And when they do things, they do them, it's their virtue. And if you look at Obama's first inaugural address, which was–they're saying in the papers this morning was watched by more people than Trump's first one.

HUGH HEWITT: First State of the Union, not inaugural, first State of the Union–

LARRY ARNN: Yeah, sorry, first State of the Union. If you look at that, the people are struggling but resolute and resilient. They endure, and then he names a bunch of achievements they've had, and those are all achievements that are triggered by something the government did for them.

And so it's a different, you know–Clinton's speech is my favorite of all the ones that I don't like, because it starts out with this amazing sentence. We meet here in the bleak of winter, but by what we say and the faces we show the world, we can force the spring. So, you know, it's nature being overcome by what? Policy.

So Trump's thing is, American people have a nature, and if you let them live under laws and earn and take care of themselves, they will, and all of their dignity says over and over comes from that activity.


LARRY ARNN: And that's very like Reagan's first State of the Union.

HUGH HEWITT: And let's get to the specifics now. Here is the president talking about the tragic toll of violent people in the country without permission, illegal aliens, cut number one.

DONALD TRUMP: Many of these gang members took advantage of glaring loopholes in our laws to enter the country as illegal, unaccompanied, alien minors, and wound up in Kayla and Nisa's high school. Evelyn, Elizabeth, Freddy, and Robert, tonight, everyone in this chamber is praying for you. Everyone in America is grieving for you.

HUGH HEWITT: You know, Dr. Arnn, this is the one part of the speech I did not like. Because there are 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the United States, but they were talking the legalization of 1.8 million Dreamers and confusing-- we have problems of scale, Dr. Bennett used to say. When the numbers get too big, we tend to just lose count. 10,000 is such a small percentage of 1.8 million. What was the point of that do you think?

LARRY ARNN: Well, he–so, you know, the effective thing going on here, the reason the speech is politically brilliant in my opinion, more than any other reason is there's a consensus in America about immigration, and that is we don't mind immigration, we don't like illegal immigration. And there's a very large majority that agrees with that, most of those propositions.

Why then can't we stop illegal immigration? The claim that sympathy toward the ones already here makes it racist and cruel to build a wall, for example. Well, Trump has just sidestepped all that, right? Because he's going to legalize 1.8 million people on condition that they demonstrate–that there will be a process to become a citizen on condition that they demonstrate that they're not living like those people in MS-13.

HUGH HEWITT: That they're not one of the 10,000. That we're going to let 1.8 million people in, but they cannot be one of those 10,000. But he never connected that dot.

And when we come back, we'll talk about that, because I also–bringing up the parents, it was just heartbreaking, and I'm not sure I could have done that. But we'll talk more about that with Dr. Larry Arnn, President of Hillsdale College right after this. Stay tuned, America.

Welcome back, America, it's Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Arnn, this is really below the level of conversation that we're usually used to, but I have to cover it. Michael Wolff, who is a discredited gossip columnist, wrote a horribly salacious book in which was included an intimation of an extramarital affair between Ambassador Haley and the president, which has been roundly denounced.

And I wouldn't shake hands with the guy, but he showed up on Morning Joe this morning and Mika threw him off. And then he takes to Twitter to trash Mika about how they gossip more eagerly off-camera about who's sleeping with whom and who the president might be sleeping–I mean, our media has just crashed and burned.

LARRY ARNN: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm astonished by Michael Wolff and I'm astonished by the people who print him. And I'm astonished by the people who give him interviews, all of them. And that means–that's bipartisan astonishment that I just stated there.

HUGH HEWITT: He's a horrible man.

LARRY ARNN: Yeah, well, for money, right? He is explicit that he writes things that he makes up to be outrageous about public affairs and sell copy. That's what he says he does for a living.

HUGH HEWITT: Yeah. He makes up stuff and he sells it.

LARRY ARNN: And that's right. And it's, you know, it's–there's a joke that goes around any decent college campus where literature people will argue that it's harder because you have to create to write fiction, and the history people will argue that it's harder because you have to look it up. And the truth is, at the high level, both are harder, and Aristotle even says maybe poetry is higher than history. But I mustn't take sides in that argument, I got both.

Anyway, you see, to apply this standard, that you just make it up to the news? And so the truth is, probably, I don't know. Because, you know, I'm proud to say that four or five months ago I didn't know who Michael Wolff was.

HUGH HEWITT: Neither did I.

LARRY ARNN: Probably people don't take him seriously.

HUGH HEWITT: Well, I–the Nikki Haley stuff, it puts–and then the former First Lady and Secretary of State goes on the Grammys and reads from a book with that allegation in it. No wonder the Grammys are down 24% year over year. And I asked my law students the other day, did any of you watch the Grammys? They said, no, we don't even have cable anymore. And I believe that the rising generation is developing a complete aversion to this so-called news because they understand it all to be drama–it's not news!

LARRY ARNN: Yeah. So again, I think news among the young operates mostly through notifications now. Apple and Google and everybody, all the big ones, they all have news feeds, you know, and if you sign up for your stuff and you have your notifications on, then things will–it happens to me all the time, and I'm interested in the news so I don't mind it.

So I think that they see the news in snippets too much. And I think in general, by the way, kids don't read enough, and I don't pine that they don't watch news on TV–I hardly ever do it myself–but they should read. Everybody, you know, if you spend 30 minutes in the morning, reading the papers, you can just learn a lot.

And also, if you read three or four–I read three or four things, and that means that when I read a story, like last week we talked–what was it we talked about? Oh, we talked about whether it was–well I'm not recovering it now, but in The Wall Street Journal it was reported that–oh yeah, I got it now–officials told Trump that Don McGahn, the White House counsel, would quit if they fired Mueller.


LARRY ARNN: And The New York Times–both sourced the story and those are both serious places, right? They said that they were told that McGahn told Trump that. That's two very different things.


LARRY ARNN: And I'm not accusing either one of them of lying, I think they're both serious as a matter of fact. I'm just saying, hard to know what goes in–

HUGH HEWITT: Hard to know

LARRY ARNN: –those places. And you'll be skeptical about drawing conclusions if you've read them both.

HUGH HEWITT: But I do think there's a difference between someone who admits that he's making stuff up. He should not have a place on air. And when we come back, we'll talk about the descent of the media and utter chaos and the president's State of the Union with Dr. Larry Arnn. All things Hillsdale are available at Hillsdale.edu, and all of our conversations dating back in 2013 at HughForHillsdale.com, stay tuned.

And I want to advise all of the young college–would-be college students out there and their parents who think they want to be journalists. I know there's a great school at Medill. Guy Benson is a graduate there. I know there's a great school at Syracuse. I know there's a great school at Missouri, there's a wonderful graduate school at Columbia.

But if I really wanted to learn journalism and I really wanted to learn radio, I would go to Hillsdale because of John Miller and because of Scott Bertram and because of the team around them. You really do teach the craft. And the late great Michael Kelly said, it's not a profession–journalism is a craft. And there is no one who credentials you as a journalist like a lawyer or a doctor, it's a craft like woodworking, only it's working in facts, hopefully, as opposed to what Michael Wolff does.

But it's in decline, Dr. Arnn. That's what I want to talk to you about. I really believe when I saw the coverage on Tuesday and Wednesday that I could predict 9 and 1/2 out of 10 responses coming out of anyone's particular mouth about any subject, because it is all a kabuki dance now. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?

LARRY ARNN: I agree. And, you know, so we–I'll add one thing to what you said about our journalism program. It is very–John and Scott are very good. Also, remember it's in a context. We don't have a journalism major here. You have to major in something, and you also have to take the core curriculum. And that means when you leave here, you will be acquainted with the whole sweep of the Western tradition and how that compares to the rest of the tradition.

So that means that you can place things in a context, and that's sadly absent these days. Charles Kesler and Victor Hanson both wrote great articles–one in The New York Times and one in National Review Online I think–about the State of the Union message. And both of their articles are rich with knowledge of the past, of the constitutional structure, right? And it makes them interesting.

And then there's just one more thing. When you make any work of art–and I mean art in the general sense, means whatever people make–are you trying to represent something or are you trying to do something about yourself? And so the great art–the great tradition and peaks of art are all attempts to show nature more vividly and of course in a different modality than nature actually exists.

So to make a painting, you know, like, say, Turner paints these fabulous sea battles, right? And it's hard to think of anything more in motion than a sea battle where the wind and the ships are all moving. He can put that in two dimensions on a static canvas, right? It is a vast act of creation, but how do you judge it except is it like the thing?

Journalism has the same problem. You know, 800 words or 1,200 words or 1,400 words in The New York Times is not the same thing as the actual meetings in the White House. Can you represent those meetings fairly in the 800 or 1,200 or 1,400 words? And I think because we have abandoned our idea of truth and nature, I think we have–our journalism has declined toward the direction of Michael Wolff, although he's the extreme.

HUGH HEWITT: He is the extreme, but he is the direction in which we're heading, because that which gets rewarded gets repeated. He has sold more books than, say, I have or you have, and that's because you and I write true things and true things are a little bit more difficult to write. They require an attention to fact and detail so that they are not held up to the contempt of our friends, which would embarrass us, right?

LARRY ARNN: Rephrase that–if we were as good at truth-telling as he is at lying, maybe we'd sell more books.

HUGH HEWITT: Perhaps we would. But there is good news on this front, and I want to touch on the good news. I just tweeted out that during the break that Amazon Prime is now running the movie Ride the Thunder about the true heroes of Vietnam, the co-vans, the last American Marines who stood side-by-side with the Republic of South Vietnam soldiers as the North invaded contra, the peace, and the Democrats abandoned the commitments Nixon and Ford had made and the Republic of Vietnam was lost and hundreds of thousands went to the camps.

And some Americans fought bravely and valiantly and that's out on Amazon Prime, made by an independent filmmaker. At the same time, our friend Lee Habeeb–you know Lee–Lee has begun OurAmericanNetwork.org and the first thing on there is an excellent video by Dr. Bill Bennett about the opioid crisis, which killed 64,000 people last year.

And so we are developing new means of communicating, but I don't know that we're developing them fast enough against this explosion of POV–point of view journalism. Everything is point of view journalism, it's not neutral–it doesn't even pretend to be neutral anymore, Larry.

LARRY ARNN: Yeah. And if you, you know, like I–did you know that Winston Churchill got up in the morning and he read about 10 newspapers cover to cover very fast and he clipped them with a pair of scissors and articles were taped in big scrapbooks. And among the things he read was the Daily Worker. You know, the Communist Party paper of Britain.

And we know that because we have the scrapbooks, but we also know that because in the House of Commons, he will sometimes cite articles from the Daily Worker, right? And you know, Churchill was not in fact a communist.

So that's the ticket, right? You know, my opinion is, if you're a normal human being–that's to say, you have a life and you don't just, you know, spend all your time on politics, then you should read the papers every day. My own view is you should read them fast–I take that view in part because I don't have time to read them any other way–but you should read a bunch of them.

And that's, you know, a way to go. Like, you know, I like–I dislike–I like The New York Times, though. Because whatever it does–and sometimes it's silly and awful and just misses huge things, right? Well, we're all like that sometimes. I think they're more commonly like that, but they always make a big effort. And you know, they're skilled. So I would read them.

HUGH HEWITT: Yeah, I do. And in fact, when people I've told often, my prep before the show is The Times of London, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal in that order, which is an arc from east to west, and it's also an arc from left to right, because I think The Times of London is actually the left of The New York Times for a variety of reasons, I don't know if you agree with me on that.

LARRY ARNN: Oh yeah.

HUGH HEWITT: But I have to keep track and they're ahead of us on the news cycle, and by the time the show begins, I'm fully read in and I can go to my audio, which is what I want to do with you now, because I want to go back to the State of the Union and play a couple of important clips for your commenting. Cut number six, Donald Trump on dreaming.

DONALD TRUMP: This in fact is our new American moment. There has never been a better time to start living the American dream. So to every citizen watching at home tonight, no matter where you've been or where you've come from, this is your time. If you work hard, if you believe in yourself, if you believe in America, then you can dream anything. You can be anything. And together, we can achieve absolutely anything.

HUGH HEWITT: What do you think, Dr. Arnn?

LARRY ARNN: Yeah, isn't that powerful? And it's a call to us to live fully human lives as citizens of a free republic, and that's the strongest rhetoric in American history because it is the expression of the principles of the land.

You know, there are alternative ways taught in great regimes of the past and the present that have worked. So the traditional society, hierarchical society, the holy society, right? Those are–and there are instances, important ones in history when, you know, the Roman Republic was a hierarchical society, but the people at the top of the hierarchy were largely or extensively brave and devoted to the public interest. And you have to recognize that as a great thing. And so they didn't talk quite the way Donald Trump was talking, right?

Now in my little opinion, the United States is the greatest expression of political justice, especially for the modern world where you have to have limited government because you have to have freedom of religion, because God goes across national boundaries, and in the ancient world, he didn't. So I think America is a peak of all of that, and that passage that you isolated is a fine example of the peak of all of that in America.

HUGH HEWITT: Now let me give you my theory, and we may have to come back to this after the break. People don't credit Trump with having a strategery, but if you look at his six major speeches–his inaugural address, American carnage, his first address to Congress on February 28th of last year in which he made promises–he said he's going to be a promise-keeper and he said Justice Gorsuch is the first, not yet confirmed but nominated.

And then he went abroad for three speeches–Saudi Arabia, in which he called on the leaders of Islam to direct their imams to tell people their souls will be fully condemned if they embrace terrorism; Poland, where he did West is Best; in Davos, where he said America first is not America alone; and then he came back and gave this speech.

Those six speeches combined to send one big message–this president is not like the last president in every single particular. I am a repudiation of President Obama. What do you think of my theory?

LARRY ARNN: Well I think that's right. And I think, you know, I will add that his campaign speeches, the big set piece speeches, several of them are very good. And this is at a time when he was just thought to be just showboat and a reckless orator. And I think you're right that, you know, there's a divide in the country, right? We have a great choice before us.

I think my responsibility doing what I do for a living is, you know, as regards public affairs, is to try to elucidate that choice–make it clear to people what we're choosing between, because both of them have their claims, right? And Obama was a very effective man, and I started out today by comparing with Obama's first–and you're right, they make different points, they have a different way of approaching things because they believe in a different way of living in a different kind of nation.

HUGH HEWITT: So do you think the antagonism to Trump, which is now so palpable, it is on every station not named Fox, in almost every pundit's lips out every moment–hostility, hatred for Donald Trump. Is it because of his style or because of the underlying collision of really tectonic plates in American political theory?

LARRY ARNN: Well, yeah it's the latter, right? I mean, it's–what's the swamp that he's going to drain, right? And who's attacking him? So there's this phenomenon that is the strongest intellectual force and political force in America, in my opinion, that stems from the universities, and it reaches deeply into governmental–

HUGH HEWITT: Hold that thought. I'll be right back, I want to get to that thought and expand on that.

Fundamental things for a fun America, that is Dr. Larry Arnn's famous phrase from 2015 as we entered Switzerland and began to observe the presidential campaign of 2015-16 then the election that surprised the world, and now the first year of the presidency of Donald Trump and the first State of the Union.

And at that, fundamental things being afoot, doctor, and leads me back to your state of Michigan–there's something going on there in the person of John James. Follow him on Twitter, @JohnJamesMI, John James Michigan. He is sadly a graduate of the University of Michigan Business School and roots for the blue. He is, however, an Army captain with a distinguished record of service, he is a CEO of a business, and he is dynamite. Have you come across him yet?

LARRY ARNN: I've had two long talks with him, one in my office. And there's a fire in that guy. And I started–he's very articulate, he's a very principled man, he's a very faithful man. He's fun. And I started out, you know, because I'm old now and settled in my ways–although, by the way, your audience can tell because I'm so sharp, but I just take my Relief Factor.

HUGH HEWITT: There you go!

LARRY ARNN: So I started out thinking, you know, of course this guy can't be elected. He's running because he gets his name out and then he can run for something else. That's, you know, we're used to that.

HUGH HEWITT: And we should add, he's an African American from Detroit. We should add that. For the people who haven't seen him.

LARRY ARNN: And so, you know, people, you know, my saying that to him, that was kind of an invitation for him to say, I was–for him to know, I was interested in him and would like to be helpful to him over time. He was angry when I said that. This is a really fiery guy, right? And he's a very good guy too. If you met him you'd like him. I like him a lot.

HUGH HEWITT: Well, I've had him on the radio and people are telling me-- Justice Young, who was going to run for that seat to–because Debbie Stabenow is a staple of American politics. I have nothing particularly bad to say about her. I have nothing particularly good to say about her. She's simply a vote for Chuck Schumer. I mean that's all she has done in her long years in the Senate. Can you think of anything Debbie Stabenow has done?

LARRY ARNN: Well, first of all, we're going–this is a primary, so we're going to be–I'm going to be in Switzerland, you are too. So I'll just say–I'm not going to tell the Lincoln joke–for people who like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing they like. I will say that she is a hard worker and she stays close to the people of Michigan. And I think those are her gifts. And I think she would be very hard to beat, but I don't think it's impossible.

And I think that James brings something else. You know, back when I first talked to him, I talked to him twice, as I said, you know, everybody thought Robert Young, who's a great guy and whom I know well, was going to be the nominee.

And James said to me, he said, he's not going to stay in. And I said, really? He said, yeah. He said–and he likes Young–he didn't know him very well, but he likes them. He didn't say a bad word about him, except he said, I don't think he likes it. And I said, why do you say that? He said, because there's not that much activity there. Well, I only mean kind things to Robert Young, but James is–he's pushing. He's going to be–he's going to be there.

HUGH HEWITT: He is not going to let it go. He believes it is doable, and of course, if you take away even 10% of the African American vote in Michigan you can beat Debbie Stabenow. But he's got to make that–that's the fundamental thing that are afoot. Detroit is changing rapidly in the good and it's reinvigorating, but you've also got an influx of the Google people in Ann Arbor. And you know, the new information economy people are not particularly bright on anything except their own world and they're not very bright on government.

LARRY ARNN: No. And they, you know, they're–I don't know if it's good for a person to not have much education and get really rich when they're 30.

HUGH HEWITT: That's very bad for a person.

LARRY ARNN: And, you know, very remarkable people it might be OK, but–and these guys are very remarkable people, but they've pieced their knowledge of things together while they go, and that means that signals in the culture, like in the media that you were talking about earlier, that's what they know, too many of them.

But this guy, you know, this guy, you know, he's a reader. He has a habit, you know, if you talk to me, you get books mentioned to you. He writes him down. And you know, he's working through a list. So I, yeah, I think he's a serious guy.

HUGH HEWITT: We will keep an eye on him. One more thing about the president's speech, Larry Arnn. He used an example of a North Korean with crutches who had lost his legs fleeing that country. It's an amazing picture. What do you think of that moment?

LARRY ARNN: Well, Reagan–Trump's State of the Union message was a lot like Reagan's. It was a hark back to them in explicit ways. And ever since Reagan–Reagan was the first one to introduce a hero as an example of a point he wanted to make at the State of Union message, and now they all do it.

Trump did it more than anybody. And that story has got to be the most, I mean, dramatic. it is implausible when you hear there's a man who's been, you know, who's impaired for life walking, and he escaped North Korea on crutches, and he was there.

HUGH HEWITT: And he was in our–he was in our Congress and applauded by our 535 elected representatives and the president and the vice president. It was incredible. There's hope for North Korea, I guess. I guess there's hope in that.

Dr. Larry Arnn, there's hope that you'll be back in your regular spot next week Friday for that Hillsdale Dialogue. All of them collected at HughForHillsdale.com.

Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Generalissimo. Thanks to you, Samurai Ben, and of course, to Dr. Arnn, and to all of you for listening. I'll be back tomorrow with Jan Janura on the Annual Groundhog's Day show here on the Hugh Hewitt Show.

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